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Thread: Charging and range concerns

  1. #1
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    Charging and range concerns

    I live in the Netherlands and have ordered an I-Pace First Edition, should be produced in October. I am curious, do any of the ppl who ordered here familiar with driving BEVs? I have driven a Tesla Model S as my "daily (and only) driver" for over 4.5 years, and during that time I have driven around 150.000 electrified (and electrifying) kilometers. I like the exterior of the I-Pace, LOVE the interior, and think it is awesome that after so many companies have been announcing "Tesla Killers" for years on Powerpoints and in press releases, Jaguar is the first to actually put one out on the street (well, kinda, because we still had to order one without ever having seen it in person). The specs are good, so are the features and the price point, there is nothing that someone accustomed to driving a Model S would miss in the I-Pace (and quite a few things to look forward to that Tesla doesn't offer, such as a HUD).

    But there are two things that surprise me. With BEVs, performance comes pretty much for free - the challenge is in the combination of battery size, range and efficiency. And this is where the I-Pace is _really_ lacking - but no one (including car journalists) seem to mention this. Sure, 90kW is a big battery. And 240 mile EPA is a usable range. But to get only 240 miles EPA from a 90kW battery, that is rather underwhelming. Tesla's Model X is bigger and heavier than the I-Pace, but they get this range (237 miles EPA to be exact) from a 75kW battery. By comparison, the I-Pace is a real "gas guzzler" (or electron guzzler, anyway) - the worst of all EV's on the market so far.

    The other thing that surprises me is the fact that charging capacity seems to be an afterthought with the I-Pace. When the Tesla Model S came out, they made sure you could charge anywhere there is electricity to be found, as fast as the power supply would allow. Anything from a standard electricity socket (3.7kW in the Netherlands) to 11kW or 22kW three phase industrial power supplies and designated EV AC (Type 2) chargers (11kW or 22kW). For DC charging you could get an adapter for 50/100kW ChaDEMO and CCS chargers and to top things off, there are Tesla's 120/130kW Superchargers.

    For the I-Pace, Jaguar (rightfully) opted to use a CCS2 charging plug, and that makes perfect sense because it is the European standard. It is a combination plug that can be used for both AC and DC charging. The AC part of this plug is a Mennekes Type 2 connecter - designed for three phase charging (11kW or 22kW). But for some reason that leaves me bewildered, Jaguar chose to use only one of the three phases in this plug, and fitted the car with a mere 7kW single phase onboard charger. I don't know about the UK, but in the Netherlands there are currently 80.000 home chargers and 32.000 (semi)public charger that offer 11kW to a Type 2 connector. 11kW to three phases, two of which the I-Pace ignores, so the result is that it will only charge with 3.7kW on pretty much all domestic and public Type 2 chargers.

    This boils down to a empty-to-full time of 27hours. Put differently, for each hour you drive the car you will have to be connected to an AC charger for 8 hours to refill it. And the reality is that you won't be able to charge everywhere and every time you park your car. That means there won't be enough hours in the day to recharge your car even if you used half of the available range.

    Jaguar has put it's faith in fast DC charging, hoping that this infrastructure will increase drastically in the following years. Unfortunately, this is "old thinking". With gasoline cars, the only option you have is "roadside fueling" - and it is no big bother because the range is very high and the "charge time" very low. But hardly anyone buys a BEV knowing that they will frequently need to wait by the side of the road until their battery is charged. Even 40 minutes is way to long for that (and there are hardly any chargers about that can do it that fast). Roadside fast DC charging is only for long distance travel. Everything else can easily be covered with AC destination charging.

    The numbers prove this. Because electric cars have been heavily subsidised for years, the Netherlands are (after Norway) EV frontrunner in Europe, both in terms of EV marketshare and public charging infrastructure. But while there are over 100.000 AC chargers to be found around the country, there are only about 200 DC charger locations (including the Tesla Superchargers). And while AC chargers typically charge you around the same price per kWh as you would at pay at home, perhaps a few cents more, the few DC chargers that are around charge you rates that are comparable to regular gas prices. The reason for his is simple: if you can charge the largest BEV battery in existence today (100kW) in 9 hours from completely empty to completely full using the standard 11kW AC charger on your front porch, you won't need fast charging for at least 350 days per year.

    I just don't understand why Jaguar opted to put out a €100.000 electric car but leave two out of three pins in the CCS power connector disconnected. To save a few hundred bucks worth of hardware?

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Ian D's Avatar
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    Jaguar have stated that it’ll take 10 hrs on a 7kW wall box to charge to 80%.

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...hp-ev-revealed
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian D View Post
    Jaguar have stated that it’ll take 10 hrs on a 7kW wall box to charge to 80%.

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...hp-ev-revealed
    7kW means 32A on a 240V outlet. Usually, there is a 25A or 32A single phase connection in The Netherlands. So even if 32A is available, there is nothing left for the rest of the house.

    However, all houses built after 1990 are prepared for a 3x25A connection, and changing from 1x25A to 3x25A is relatively cheap. After 2011 this is even the default connection. So you could use 3x16A (11 Kw) without issues, or even more when using a load balancer. But it seems the I-Pace only accepts a single phase currently. This might change sometime in 2019, but I guess it won't be an easy or free upgrade...

    I could reserve one of the phases for charging only. This means 240Vx24A=5.5kW. Do 24A chargers even exist? Upgrading to 3x35A is quite expensive. Downgrading to 1x40A is not possible as I have several uses for three phases (ie cooking and solar panels).

    Anyway, I am not happy. I ordered a SE last week not knowing about this limitation.

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    Hi Pebell,

    I'm about to pull the trigger too and am also confused a bit about the range vs Tesla Model X. In Europe, the iPace is mentioned as 480km on WLTP which is 298 miles. In the US it's mentioned as 240 miles EPA which is just above a Model X 75D. From what I've read WLTP should be more or less the same as EPA, or even lower than EPA. I also read somewhere that the Model X 100D (and all other Teslas) will be quoted in WLTP from September 2018 onwards and will be expected to be below 240 miles. My car will be a lease car and one of the main reasons to go with the iPace over the Tesla Model X is the difference in lease cost makes the iPace more of a possibility, even when going with a First Edition.

    Very confusing at this point!

    I'm also surprised that the home charging is limited to 7kW (way below the Tesla), however this is not such a big deal as I'll typically leave my car to charge overnight and will pretty much always have charge for what I need on a daily basis. What I'm worried about is stefxx's post where I'm concerned that I won't be able to charge at 7kW. Any news on how I would be able to check this?

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    To get that 7kW at home you need to have 240V/32A 1-phase output. If you limited to 16A max, then you can get only 3,5kW. So you better check your home electric first what you can get. I don't know your country system but here I can found main current in my electric bill stating that I have 3x25A connection. So that in practice means that I can get max 16A charging current (=3,5kW) and that's only concern to buy I-Pace. When to see it yesterday in the local dealer. Nice car but those Performance seats didn't suit my, head rests too low for tall guy like me.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MjrPayne View Post
    To get that 7kW at home you need to have 240V/32A 1-phase output. If you limited to 16A max, then you can get only 3,5kW. So you better check your home electric first what you can get. I don't know your country system but here I can found main current in my electric bill stating that I have 3x25A connection. So that in practice means that I can get max 16A charging current (=3,5kW) and that's only concern to buy I-Pace. When to see it yesterday in the local dealer. Nice car but those Performance seats didn't suit my, head rests too low for tall guy like me.
    Thanks MjrPayne. I'll have a check on my home electrics. The house is only 10 years old and I'm based in Luxembourg, so I hope it's OK. Even if I can only get 3.5kW, I'll probably still be OK as my daily commute is only around 50km. With this, I would be able to be fully charged overnight. I'll be going for the First Edition, so no option for the Performance seats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclarenpaul View Post
    Thanks MjrPayne. I'll have a check on my home electrics. The house is only 10 years old and I'm based in Luxembourg, so I hope it's OK. Even if I can only get 3.5kW, I'll probably still be OK as my daily commute is only around 50km. With this, I would be able to be fully charged overnight. I'll be going for the First Edition, so no option for the Performance seats.
    I'm also checking with my local energy company. They currently supply and install 32A single phase 7kW charging boxes, so fingers crossed my house will support it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mclarenpaul View Post
    I'm also checking with my local energy company. They currently supply and install 32A single phase 7kW charging boxes, so fingers crossed my house will support it.
    Local energy company called me back. Normally I'm fine, but waiting to make an appointment for a home visit so they can check and also give me an offer for the installation.

  9. #9
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    For the UK at least, this is not usually a problem.

    3 phase supply to the home is relatively rare over here, but 60A 240V is pretty normal.

    If you need more, most homes can go to 80A or even 100A either free or for a minimal cost.

    My upgrade happened this morning, I booked it for an upgrade from 60A to 80A, but the company actually upgraded it to 100A at no cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclarenpaul View Post
    Local energy company called me back. Normally I'm fine, but waiting to make an appointment for a home visit so they can check and also give me an offer for the installation.
    The local energy company came to do the check. Unfortunately, with the current installation I have, the maximum charge rate I could have is around 3.5kW. 3 phase is also standard here in Luxembourg. They've told me to request the electricity infrastructure provider to increase the amps from 40A to 50A which would then give me 7kw charging on a single phase by increasing one of the phases. I'm in the process of doing this, however, the electrician who advised me said it's not guaranteed this will be accepted.

    Fingers crossed.

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