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Thread: Calling a Spade a Spade

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDavid View Post
    No - I'm sorry but I don't know the answer ........................ what else could I deduce from reading this ??

    Meanwhile outside the home of the Deceased the usual collection of Sportswear Clad Asian Youth begin to congregate old Asian
    Women clad in Hijab, totally disconnected from the actions of their own offspring as they are from you and me pay their respects
    while on Social Media we have the obligatory " RIP BRUV". Well I can certainly rest in peace that another piece of Trash has
    "shuffled off this mortal coil" and I offer Yorkshire Police my thanks for a job well done though we both know there is a much
    wider issue going on in this country and in order to address it " We have to call a Spade a Spade"
    Perhaps your glasses could do with a wipe David as this is your second attempt to manufacture a bit of controversy, let me deal
    with the above quotation from my original post, " another piece of Trash " were my words not "another piece of ASIAN Trash"
    a small but crucial difference.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDavid View Post
    Not going to contribute much to this thread as I know I will disagree with much of what is said.
    I would merely point out that British Police shot dead 5 people in 2016. 4 were white males, the other (Dalian Atkinson) was of Afro-Caribbean descent.
    Were all five just "more pieces of trash", or just four of them ??
    Noone would advocate the indiscriminate killing of civilians by the Police and the inclusion of Dalian Atkinson who had both Phychiatric Issues
    and was not a criminal is an unfortunate one in fact I believe he was tasered and not shot
    An armed criminal is an armed criminal regardless of ethnicity and you knew this would be my reply, which was why I said that you knew the answer
    to the question before you asked it.

  3. #23
    Senior Member DevonDavid's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to generate controversy but I *do* find it frustrating that not just on this thread or this forum, but in the media and in the pub, I hear and read about all the problems, but I don't hear many rational and well-argued solutions.

    Yes- we have a problem of poor integration in some parts of the UK between relatively recent arrivals to this country, and the so-called "indigenous" population.
    Yes - we have a healthcare system which is creaking and unable to cope with the way that life expectancy, lifestyle decisions, and changes in technology are making it impossible to meet expectations, but nobody seems prepared to pay the additional taxes necessary to fund the gap.
    Yes - there is a problem with the radicalisation of a small number of Muslim young males (and a few females) by extremists, which is of huge concern - not just to non-Muslims, but to "moderate Muslims" as well.
    Yes - there is an imbalance between what might be described as "our" traditions and customs, and those of other ethnic groups but that's not totally one-sided. On many occasions, I have had to wade through the vomit and urine, and avoid the aggression of young men and women, outside pubs and nightclubs in many of our major cities. I have to say that those bodies, and the origin of the bodily fluids, were exclusively Caucasian !!
    Yes - we have a benefits system which, whilst making it easier for those with real need, has also made it prone to exploitation by those who want to cheat.
    Yes - we have an over-dependency on Financial Services and Service Industries, at the expense of traditional manufacturing and industry.
    Yes - we have failed our young people by convincing them that a degree in media studies in better than learning to lay bricks, or plumb-in a kitchen.
    Yes - we have seen our ability to make decisions about "our" country diluted by our well-intentioned expectation that a united Europe would stop the need for our sons to go off to war in the way that it happened to our fathers and grandfathers.
    Yes - There is a fragmentation in society between those who *have* - based mainly in London and the South East, and those who *haven't* who live elsewhere.

    So ............ I'm onside with all that.

    What I find hard to cope with is the "Let's wind the clock back to 1953 proposal" when it was OK to call the recent arrival from Jamaica "chalky" and when Greeks and Italians were allowed to smile while they cooked, but shouldn't get above their station. I see a contradiction in the proposal that we need more integration as long as it doesn't lead to any more brown babies. I worry that most people of a certain faith are vilified and verbally abused when some of their beliefs (about family, the work ethic, tolerance and care for others) are the same as mine, and are certainly no worse than those of devout adherents to what could be called our "traditional" faiths. I like the idea of a "green and pleasant land" but that poem was originally written in 1804 when life expectancy was around 50, and child mortality was 15% so maybe not such a good plan to return to that.

    So - answers please. We are where we are. You can't sent somebody who was born in Hounslow back home - he's already there. You can't take away British passports that were given to British Citizens. You can't send somebody back to Syria if there's nowhere to land the aeroplane. You can't tear up International Agreements on Human Rights because you don't like what's on page 15 !
    I don't want to hear more problems, I want to hear some logical and well-argued solutions.



    Edit - Oh - and please don't tell me I don't understand - believe me I DO. I have lived in West London and Manchester. I have worked in a multi-cultural and multi-racial environment. I admit that I have not worked abroad in a strict religious country, but I know friends who have. I'm not far off 70, so I'm not some rosy-cheeked well-intentioned youth with no experience of the real world. I spent 5 years (in my spare time) building a boat from a bare GRP hull to something that got me across the Channel and well down the coast of France, so I know what a hammer and chisel are for, and how to use them.
    David.
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  5. #24
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    Firstly David I share your frustrations but I genuinely think the Muslim Question is beyond sorting and its simply a case
    of how much more the Indigenous Population will take before they act.
    I raise a wry smile at your desire for logical and well argued solutions, do they have to be ones that you find palatable ?
    What has been proven beyond all shadow of doubt is that the Englishman cannot rely upon either State or Police to protect
    him from this onslaught against his Culture his Ideals and his Aspirations and like the call for Brexit the Liberal Elite will be
    the last to hear his cry and by then it may be too late.

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  7. #25
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    Regarding your "lets wind the clock back" analogy, I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way and as result
    our Identity as a Society has largely been lost. Why oh why are some Englishmen now terrified of discussing race in this
    country ? We raped and pillaged two thirds of the world to build an Empire and now we have issues about discussing
    Muslims in Luton.How does that come about ? It comes about through Indoctrination, the old Multi Cultural Ideal which
    is a falsehood drummed into us at every opportunity by the Politician and the Media.Some people in this country David
    still don't accept that there is a problem.

  8. #26
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    I see this afternoon Bradford West MP Naz Shah has appealed for "calm in our community" in the wake of this shooting.
    Naz Shah, this was the woman that wanted to relocate Israel to the United States another Tokenist Candidate from the
    Labour Party in their desperate quest for authenticity amongst the Ethnic Vote

  9. #27
    Senior Member DevonDavid's Avatar
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    reddiesel - thanks for the above two posts. NO - I don't only want solutions I agree with. I want solutions - full stop. Civil war is not a solution - it is the result of our failure to address the problem in a better way.
    For what it's worth, and many will disagree ........... I'm no expert on comparative religions but I know that the prophet Mohammed was born around 5AD. So - as religions go, Islam is about 500 years behind Christianity. If you think back to what Christians were doing to each other, and to "non-believers" in the 15th and 16th centuries (if she floats she's a witch, if she sinks she's a (dead) believer !!) - then I don't have quite the same degree of despair as you do.
    I also think there are two other factors. Islam, as I understand it, makes women second-class citizens and denies them many rights and equal opportunities. That can't continue beyond another two or maybe three generations. Women are not like that once you give them a voice - the word 'suffragette' springs to mind.
    The internet has made it possible for pretty much everyone outside of a few totally repressive regimes to be aware of so-called Western Culture and the freedoms we have and which, all too often, we take for granted. I may be wrong - and won't live long enough to find out - but I suspect that most major world religions will eventually become pretty much extinct in real terms. There will always be small communities of strict believers, whether it be the Amish and Mormons in the US, the Jewish groups in London in Stamford Hill and Golders Green, or Jehova's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists. So - probably - the Sharia sect in Bradford and Northern Pakistan.
    I think my great great grandchildren will study "The Moslem Wars - 1990 to 2090 in the way that I seem to remember "The 100 years war" at school, although I have no recollection whatsoever about the events involved.
    I'm not making light of it - I accept and agree that there's a major world-wide problem, and we have not even begun to address it in real terms - partly because, as has been said, there's always been the issue of racism. I'm no apologist for any criminal or terrorist act whether it be in the name of greed or religion. However, I would make a bet that the majority of drug dealers in the UK are not of the Moslem, or any other, genuine faith, and that it is therefore inappropriate to make this any part of the justification (or otherwise) for a proper and necessary police decision to use lethal force.
    David.
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  10. #28
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDavid View Post
    Not going to contribute much to this thread as I know I will disagree with much of what is said.
    I would merely point out that British Police shot dead 5 people in 2016. 4 were white males, the other (Dalian Atkinson) was of Afro-Caribbean descent.
    Were all five just "more pieces of trash", or just four of them ??
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hayward View Post
    Same, I cannot see myself agreeing with much of what will be said either.
    .
    So, can't you guys see that it's logical, reasoning arguments with opposing views that keeps the balance on discussions like this one?
    .
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  11. #29
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    Can i call a spade a spade.....??

    Jim?
    Red?

    i have been accused of writing wrong messages....any ideas???

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  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDavid View Post
    reddiesel - thanks for the above two posts. NO - I don't only want solutions I agree with. I want solutions - full stop. Civil war is not a solution - it is the result of our failure to address the problem in a better way.
    For what it's worth, and many will disagree ........... I'm no expert on comparative religions but I know that the prophet Mohammed was born around 5AD. So - as religions go, Islam is about 500 years behind Christianity. If you think back to what Christians were doing to each other, and to "non-believers" in the 15th and 16th centuries (if she floats she's a witch, if she sinks she's a (dead) believer !!) - then I don't have quite the same degree of despair as you do.
    I also think there are two other factors. Islam, as I understand it, makes women second-class citizens and denies them many rights and equal opportunities. That can't continue beyond another two or maybe three generations. Women are not like that once you give them a voice - the word 'suffragette' springs to mind.
    The internet has made it possible for pretty much everyone outside of a few totally repressive regimes to be aware of so-called Western Culture and the freedoms we have and which, all too often, we take for granted. I may be wrong - and won't live long enough to find out - but I suspect that most major world religions will eventually become pretty much extinct in real terms. There will always be small communities of strict believers, whether it be the Amish and Mormons in the US, the Jewish groups in London in Stamford Hill and Golders Green, or Jehova's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists. So - probably - the Sharia sect in Bradford and Northern Pakistan.
    I think my great great grandchildren will study "The Moslem Wars - 1990 to 2090 in the way that I seem to remember "The 100 years war" at school, although I have no recollection whatsoever about the events involved.
    I'm not making light of it - I accept and agree that there's a major world-wide problem, and we have not even begun to address it in real terms - partly because, as has been said, there's always been the issue of racism. I'm no apologist for any criminal or terrorist act whether it be in the name of greed or religion. However, I would make a bet that the majority of drug dealers in the UK are not of the Moslem, or any other, genuine faith, and that it is therefore inappropriate to make this any part of the justification (or otherwise) for a proper and necessary police decision to use lethal force.
    Thanks for your reasoned contribution David and I would only add that I am not advocating a civil war and I never attempted to justify the shooting
    on the grounds he was a Drug Dealer,I only mentioned that to give some background regarding the character of the deceased

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