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  1. #2581
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    I saw this earlier today, it made me want to do a s e x wee.

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  3. #2582
    Senior Member payno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hayward View Post
    Okay, gotcha...

    Has anyone heard from Jim recently?
    I think that "Mother ship" finally landed

    Earth to Jim please come in, Earth to Jim please come in, over
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  4. #2583
    Senior Member jberks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hayward View Post
    With the greatest respect, it is a little difficult to believe that Israel aren't in violation of international law

    The only government, in the world, who considers the occupation settlements legal, is Israel. And to be fair, they would.

    So either you're right, and the UN, and all its member, plus all the counties outside of the UN, are antisemitic racists. Or, Israel, as I rather suspect, are in the wrong.
    Sorry, been a bit preoccupied.
    The whole of the UN isn't racist, of course, but enough to control it.
    If you want proof, just look at yesterday's failed vote against the oppressive and murderous Hammas regime.
    To be fair, it did get a majority but Kuwait fiddled it to ensure it needed a 2/3 majority which ensure there were enough antisemitic members who support their genocidal intent to vote it down. This sort of game goes along daily in the UN. They'll no doubt vote in a condemnation of Israels response though. That's standard practice.
    Stating something is illegal is easy, but that requires a breach of actual international law. There has never been a case in the international court and that's because they know in truth, there's a decent argument against.

    Just one more point if I may, and I'll let the PLO make it for me. This is the reality, outside the propaganda, which the Israelis know. Hardly surprising they can sometimes be a little intolerant.

    “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.
    “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.” – Interview with Zuheir Muhsin, a member of the PLO Executive Council, published in the March 31, 1977 edition of the Dutch Newspaper “Trouw”.


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  5. #2584
    Senior Member jberks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hayward View Post
    I saw this earlier today, it made me want to do a s e x wee.

    https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...odel=XJ&page=1

    nice... Its Christmas, you've earned it, buy it !!
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  7. #2585
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    Sadly, I don't have a garage to keep it in. Cars of that era, need cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by jberks View Post
    nice... Its Christmas, you've earned it, buy it !!
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  8. #2586
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    Well, actually, there was a prior vote (74-72), to decide whether it should be a majority, or 2/3rds majority. So, no, Kuwait didn't fiddle it.

    There was also another vote that day, put forward by Ireland and pushed by the Palestinian Authority, in favor of a two-state solution. It includes condemnation of Israeli settlements and a reference to the parameters of a future peace agreement. It passed overwhelmingly, with 156 countries voting in favor. Only Israel, the U.S., Australia, Liberia and the Marshall Islands voted against it. Quite unfortunate that Israel would vote against peace, that doesn't help anyone.

    The international community holds Israel in breach of UN resolutions dating back to the 70's, through to 2016. Overwhelmingly so. And yet, the US and Israel put forward a resolution yesterday, which got a majority, just not the numbers they needed. Proving beyond doubt, that despite your protestations, the UN isn't controlled by Anti-Semites. I wouldn't suggest for a minute there aren't some there, but they do not control the UN. It's just that a lot of people, actually want peace, a two state solution, an end to illegal occupation and people dying (most of whom have been civilians).

    Quote Originally Posted by jberks View Post
    Sorry, been a bit preoccupied.
    The whole of the UN isn't racist, of course, but enough to control it.
    If you want proof, just look at yesterday's failed vote against the oppressive and murderous Hammas regime.
    To be fair, it did get a majority but Kuwait fiddled it to ensure it needed a 2/3 majority which ensure there were enough antisemitic members who support their genocidal intent to vote it down. This sort of game goes along daily in the UN. They'll no doubt vote in a condemnation of Israels response though. That's standard practice.
    Stating something is illegal is easy, but that requires a breach of actual international law. There has never been a case in the international court and that's because they know in truth, there's a decent argument against.

    Just one more point if I may, and I'll let the PLO make it for me. This is the reality, outside the propaganda, which the Israelis know. Hardly surprising they can sometimes be a little intolerant.

    “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.
    “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.” – Interview with Zuheir Muhsin, a member of the PLO Executive Council, published in the March 31, 1977 edition of the Dutch Newspaper “Trouw”.


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  9. #2587
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    I've long been suspicious about the building industry, houses do seem to get thrown up in no time at all these days. Some of that, I am sure, can be due to efficiency, or long hours, however, some are also doing a p1ss poor job.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46454844
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  10. #2588
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    Are people here confused by DLR lights?

    I can't say I've ever found them confusing. They look quite cool, I guess, and apparently cause a drop in accident numbers. But confusing?

    https://www.petrolprices.com/news/da...other-drivers/

  11. #2589
    Senior Member jberks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hayward View Post
    Well, actually, there was a prior vote (74-72), to decide whether it should be a majority, or 2/3rds majority. So, no, Kuwait didn't fiddle it.

    There was also another vote that day, put forward by Ireland and pushed by the Palestinian Authority, in favor of a two-state solution. It includes condemnation of Israeli settlements and a reference to the parameters of a future peace agreement. It passed overwhelmingly, with 156 countries voting in favor. Only Israel, the U.S., Australia, Liberia and the Marshall Islands voted against it. Quite unfortunate that Israel would vote against peace, that doesn't help anyone.

    The international community holds Israel in breach of UN resolutions dating back to the 70's, through to 2016. Overwhelmingly so. And yet, the US and Israel put forward a resolution yesterday, which got a majority, just not the numbers they needed. Proving beyond doubt, that despite your protestations, the UN isn't controlled by Anti-Semites. I wouldn't suggest for a minute there aren't some there, but they do not control the UN. It's just that a lot of people, actually want peace, a two state solution, an end to illegal occupation and people dying (most of whom have been civilians).
    At the end of the day Thomas, the UN holding Israel in breach of resolutions sounds a reasonable statement, until you look at those resolutions.

    To put it in context, between 2006 and 2016, the UN Human Rights Council passed 135 resolutions. 68 of them were against Israel. Now are you seriously going to claim that with all the issues around the world over that decade, the tiny little country of Israel was so barbaric that it genuinely deserved more UN Human rights condemnations than the rest of the world combined?
    Israel, one of the few countries with a free press and judiciary. A country who's constitution states that every citizen is equal irrespective of race or religion. They're worse than everyone else?

    The UN General Assembly adopted 97 resolutions critical of member states.86% of those are against Israel.

    The WHO singled out Israel for condemnation - Israel, a country with a comprehensive healthcare system open to all citizens whatever race, creed or colour and one that even routinely treats citizens of enemy states such as Syria, and Palestinians.
    The international Labour Organisation singled out only Israel for condemnation. Think Bahrain for example, or perhaps China?

    And lets not even get started on the very existence of the UNHRWA. Where's it's sister group in Kashmir or Tibet? The fact that 3rd generation "Palestinians" are still classed as refugees. How about the fact that they're not allowed to work in Lebanon - can you point me to the UN Human rights statement on that issue?

    So, what's going on here?

    So, if you accept there is a blatant and obscene bias at play (and if the above isn't sufficient evidence I don't know what would be), assuming it's not based on rudimentary antisemitism, then what?

    Hence, the UN is largely irrelevant in this issue as it has no credibility as a fair and reasonable arbiter. You may as well ask "National Action' or he BNP to judge them (or the Labour party!)


    If you want to understand why Israel voted against you have to understand the root of the issue. Not that Israel voted against peace - this new resolution wouldn't have any effect on furthering that, but rather it voted against yet another lie. It lost, as it always does. But don't you think something's odd when the vote against Israel passes and yet the vote against Hammas, a terrorist group with openly stated genocidal aims, who openly target civilians, and murder their political opponents in the street is defeated?

    Lets take your statement
    "put forward by Ireland and pushed by the Palestinian Authority, in favor of a two-state solution. It includes condemnation of Israeli settlements and a reference to the parameters of a future peace agreement. It passed overwhelmingly, with 156 countries voting in favor."

    So In favour of a 2 state solution - ok - We can all sign up to that.
    Condemnation of Israeli settlements - lets not miss an opportunity to condemn Israel irrespective - and doesn't that pre-assume borders that are allegedly yet to be negotiated?
    parameters of a future peace agreement - meaningless really - what parameters and devised by who? I think we can all answer that one based on the above stats.

    But ok, lets put all that to one side, lets even accept the points, so for balance, where were the condemnations of Palestinian daily incitement to violence. Their education system that teaches a false history and the sort of antisemitism previously only seen in Nazi school books. Their automatic salaries paid to anyone who goes into Israel and murders a civilian at a bus stop? Their corruption? Their open daily statements calling for Israels total destruction. Where is even a mention of the atrocities carried out daily. Where's the call to on them to return to negotiations?

    I have a simple question for you Thomas.
    Have you been there? Have you met the people on both sides, sat down for a coffee and discussed it with them? Have you seen it for yourself?
    I have, and I watch the same media as you. I see the constant one sided reports so I get your position, but it's based on a lie.

    I'd ask you to think for a minute. Look at how the 2 peoples think and behave. On the one side, you have the Arabs. Give me an example of any functioning fair and free democracy they've managed to build? Look how they treat their citizens.
    Then look at the Israel. A country openly accused of Apartheid where an Arab judge recently sent an ex president to jail for corruption. Who's army has Israeli Arab generals. None of this should be a surprise as the people are basically as western as we are and have similar values on democracy and human rights. Then ask yourself if such people would tolerate their own government routinely behaving in the manner claimed? Would we? Would even the Americans?

    To quote an Israeli leader from many years back. If the Arabs would lay down their arms tomorrow there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow, there'd be no Israel. It's as true now as it's ever been. Until that changes, it remains insoluble.

    And lets not get started on Hezbolla's military build up on the northern border, in contravention of UN resolutions - and their response? Silence.
    You can be sure that when Israel responds, there'll be another resolution....
    That will be ignored too.


    A friend sent me this so how about the US UN Ambassador's view of the credibility of the UN.
    Last edited by jberks; 07-12-18 at 13:55.
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  12. #2590
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    I'm afraid, Israel really makes a rod for it's own back. If civilians were not dying, or being injured, in such high numbers, you would find one of two things; either there would be less resolutions raised against Israel in the first instance. Or they would receive less support. That's a little like a domestic abuser complaining about being reported to the police. It's not for nothing, that many countries, vote against Israel.

    Well, lets look into why the WHO singled out Israel? was it for, having: "a comprehensive healthcare system open to all citizens whatever race, creed or colour and one that even routinely treats citizens of enemy states such as Syria, and Palestinians."?

    No, whilst this is admirable, its also what hospitals are supposed to do, treat the sick (regardless of who they are). Also, it doesn't change conditions in West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights, which is what the WHO actually referred to.

    I sympathise with your point regarding Bahrain and China, but they are not shooting civilians in anything like the large numbers that Israel are (aside from the 2011 uprising in Bahrain). Hence, it's a question of optics, and whether you like it or not, they are not drawing such attention to themselves, they are however, guilty of human rights abuses. of that is absolutely zero doubt. You only have to look at how China is essentially putting Muslims in re-education camps.

    In short, no, there isn't bias at play, and even if there were, Israel actually has it within it's power to do something about it. And, please, lets not compare the UN to National Action, or the BNP, both of whom are despicable Nazis, that's lazy, and you're much better than that. Whatever their faults, they are nowhere near that.

    Regarding your point about the Hamas vote, I'm glad you brought that up. The vote wasn't a complete failure. There was a significant number of votes in favour. However, civilians being injured or killed, legitimises them in many eyes (the British army killing protestors on ****** Sunday saw a surge in IRA membership). People no longer see them the they should do, but then see them as a legitimate protest with desperate measures in desperate times. Not only that, its a great recruitment tool for them. If Israel wants the rest of the UN (and ordinary Palestinians) to see Hamas in the same way, then a change of approach is necessary. Until Israel start to act better than Hamas, there will be no progress. It wont be fixed overnight, but peace has to start somewhere.

    I'm afraid asking me to make comparisons between Israel shooting other peoples civilians, and other nations treating their own like dirt. It isn't a choice, its like asking me to compare two terminal diseases and pick my favourite.

    No, I haven't been to Israel (I'm envious you have), I'd like to go at some point. However, the suggestion that I'm somehow basing the little knowledge I've gleaned on "lies", does me a disservice. When civilians, doctors, nurses and press are being killed and injured, in the numbers they are. There is clearly a bigger problem than a perceived media bias. Whilst Israel is entitled and has rights to go after military targets, civilians also have rights. Those need to be protected too.

    I agree that things in their present state are unsolvable. The unfortunate truth is that it will be extremely difficult to resolve a conflict in which both sides are seemingly taught to disrespect, delegitimise and ignore the other sides' point of view from an early age. Israel are fighting an enemy that has no Air Force, Navy or Tanks. The hammer and egg approach hasn't worked, it's time to try something else, and change perceptions, not just on the world stage, but of each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by jberks View Post
    At the end of the day Thomas, the UN holding Israel in breach of resolutions sounds a reasonable statement, until you look at those resolutions.

    To put it in context, between 2006 and 2016, the UN Human Rights Council passed 135 resolutions. 68 of them were against Israel. Now are you seriously going to claim that with all the issues around the world over that decade, the tiny little country of Israel was so barbaric that it genuinely deserved more UN Human rights condemnations than the rest of the world combined?
    Israel, one of the few countries with a free press and judiciary. A country who's constitution states that every citizen is equal irrespective of race or religion. They're worse than everyone else?

    The UN General Assembly adopted 97 resolutions critical of member states.86% of those are against Israel.

    The WHO singled out Israel for condemnation - Israel, a country with a comprehensive healthcare system open to all citizens whatever race, creed or colour and one that even routinely treats citizens of enemy states such as Syria, and Palestinians.
    The international Labour Organisation singled out only Israel for condemnation. Think Bahrain for example, or perhaps China?

    And lets not even get started on the very existence of the UNHRWA. Where's it's sister group in Kashmir or Tibet? The fact that 3rd generation "Palestinians" are still classed as refugees. How about the fact that they're not allowed to work in Lebanon - can you point me to the UN Human rights statement on that issue?

    So, what's going on here?

    So, if you accept there is a blatant and obscene bias at play (and if the above isn't sufficient evidence I don't know what would be), assuming it's not based on rudimentary antisemitism, then what?

    Hence, the UN is largely irrelevant in this issue as it has no credibility as a fair and reasonable arbiter. You may as well ask "National Action' or he BNP to judge them (or the Labour party!)


    If you want to understand why Israel voted against you have to understand the root of the issue. Not that Israel voted against peace - this new resolution wouldn't have any effect on furthering that, but rather it voted against yet another lie. It lost, as it always does. But don't you think something's odd when the vote against Israel passes and yet the vote against Hammas, a terrorist group with openly stated genocidal aims, who openly target civilians, and murder their political opponents in the street is defeated?

    Lets take your statement
    "put forward by Ireland and pushed by the Palestinian Authority, in favor of a two-state solution. It includes condemnation of Israeli settlements and a reference to the parameters of a future peace agreement. It passed overwhelmingly, with 156 countries voting in favor."

    So In favour of a 2 state solution - ok - We can all sign up to that.
    Condemnation of Israeli settlements - lets not miss an opportunity to condemn Israel irrespective - and doesn't that pre-assume borders that are allegedly yet to be negotiated?
    parameters of a future peace agreement - meaningless really - what parameters and devised by who? I think we can all answer that one based on the above stats.

    But ok, lets put all that to one side, lets even accept the points, so for balance, where were the condemnations of Palestinian daily incitement to violence. Their education system that teaches a false history and the sort of antisemitism previously only seen in Nazi school books. Their automatic salaries paid to anyone who goes into Israel and murders a civilian at a bus stop? Their corruption? Their open daily statements calling for Israels total destruction. Where is even a mention of the atrocities carried out daily. Where's the call to on them to return to negotiations?

    I have a simple question for you Thomas.
    Have you been there? Have you met the people on both sides, sat down for a coffee and discussed it with them? Have you seen it for yourself?
    I have, and I watch the same media as you. I see the constant one sided reports so I get your position, but it's based on a lie.

    I'd ask you to think for a minute. Look at how the 2 peoples think and behave. On the one side, you have the Arabs. Give me an example of any functioning fair and free democracy they've managed to build? Look how they treat their citizens.
    Then look at the Israel. A country openly accused of Apartheid where an Arab judge recently sent an ex president to jail for corruption. Who's army has Israeli Arab generals. None of this should be a surprise as the people are basically as western as we are and have similar values on democracy and human rights. Then ask yourself if such people would tolerate their own government routinely behaving in the manner claimed? Would we? Would even the Americans?

    To quote an Israeli leader from many years back. If the Arabs would lay down their arms tomorrow there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow, there'd be no Israel. It's as true now as it's ever been. Until that changes, it remains insoluble.

    And lets not get started on Hezbolla's military build up on the northern border, in contravention of UN resolutions - and their response? Silence.
    You can be sure that when Israel responds, there'll be another resolution....
    That will be ignored too.
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