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  1. #2791
    Senior Member payno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jberks View Post


    And there you have it. Your objections are based on "It's not part of my culture or belief structure", rationalised on "An abuse of living things". So you see alien practices are barbaric when much of the scientific evidence is either inconclusive or contra-idicative. Dr Temple Granding of Colorado University (apparently an expert in animal welfare) has studied the subject and reported "conventional slaughter with preliminary stunning, and religious slaughter without stunning, are both acceptable when conducted properly.". She actually said she was surprised at her findings. Presumably because they go against perceived wisdom.

    Religion is a complex and therefore difficult issue. Your "Non existent deities" point clearly explains where you stand on the subject and therefore your mind is closed to the arguments of people who feel differently.

    On the non existent deities side, I tend to agree with you from a personal perspective , I'm not in any way "observant" or a believer but attacking any religious practice without proof is simply an act of intolerance.

    Personally I don't have a problem if they want to stun but I'm not going to sit here and claim that any method is palatable if I choose to think about it. So, I don't. I'm a hypocrite in this regard, but at least I recognise the fact.

    230,000 cattle in the UK are stunned incorrectly each year and suffer vastly more than any religious procedure as a consequence. Also remember, a stressed animal produces ruined meat so unless you believe Halal and Kosher meat is very poor quality, this whole argument is very much one of fractional degree.

    So, if you genuinely object on genuine animal welfare grounds, then you have no choice but to become a vegitarian. After all, otherwise you're just as hypocritial as the rest of us.

    As for the "genital" comment, I suspect I have a hell of a lot more experience of that than you do so I have a lot more right to comment, and I have absolutely no problem with it. I've never met anyone who had given it any thought, let alone wished it hadn't been done, which in my book puts objectors into the "Winter Festival" brigade. Meddling in areas nobody asked or wanted them to.
    FGM is an utterly different subject as it is proven to be harmful.

    We can all attack cultures. I don't drink particularly and my Dad likes a pint of Orange juice so I've always found it odd that one great right of passage in this country is a father taking his son to the pub on his 18th Birthday and buying him a pint. It just promotes alcoholism, dangerous behaviour and physical harm in the form of liver damage, let alone domestic and sporting violence and all the other issues surrounding alcohol. Why does a parent actively introduce their child to such harm?.

    Anyone can make a perfectly valid objection to someone else's culture - prohibition anyone or am I going over the top?
    Maybe live and let live unless it's really serious (e.g. throwing gay people of the roof of tall buildings).
    I have no problem with religion of any sort as long as it doesn't cause harm all religions need to be dragged up to an acceptable level with in modern society and all the other pomp you posted in such lovely bold print was pointless apart from making you feel better it did nothing for me
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  2. #2792
    Senior Member payno's Avatar
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    Jberks please don't take this as an attack on your religion I honestly don't care about any religion I just care about how its practiced it all needs modernising we are not the people we were thousands of years a go so in parts it does need to change and the world will be a better place for all to live

    Just look at the mess we are in today because of it !

    In fact ban it all and turn religious buildings into museums showing all the harm it has done over the millennia and reserve one small wall to show the small amount of good it does because the scales of religion have always hung heavy on the side of harm (brain washing and conditioning )
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  3. #2793
    Senior Member jberks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hayward View Post
    That is more a case of murdering scumbags (Daesh), murdering people they don't like, and trying to hide behind religion (The Quran doesn't teach this). Rather than a cultural issue.

    Also, in the UK, gay people are more at threat from general everyday homophobic attacks, than Daesh.
    I'm sure there are outragously homophobic statements in the Quran. There are certainly some terrible things in the old and new testaments including homophobic sections. So no, whilst Islam is a valid excuse for such acts, it no more instructs Muslims to do so than Jesus did.
    For the rest,
    Daesh certainly, also Hammas, Hezbollah and other pseudo Islamic political organisations have a track records of murdering gay people. As well as throwing them off buildings, they also drag them through the streets behind motorcycles. Try being openly gay in Egypt or many parts of Africa and see how long you live so I disagree in terms of comparison to what gay people suffer here in the UK.

    My point was that when a culture or religion (where one starts and the other ends is hard to define) harms others then we have a duty to object. Other than that, we should leave well alone.
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  4. #2794
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    I know what you are referring to, the guy dragged behind the motorbike was actually accused of being a "spy" (it's from 2012). The Far Right (who incidentally don't give a fcuk about LGBT) later circulated it, claiming it was because he was gay and was being punished by Muslims. Don't get me wrong, regardless of whether he was a spy or not, it's equally despicable and inhumane though.

    Try being openly gay in the UK. People are attacked and murdered here, each year, for the temerity of being attracted to the same ***. in addition to this, attacks have risen 80% in the last four years. So lets not pretend the UK is a safe haven, it isn't.

    If that was your point (culture/religion), that's all you had to say, rather than alluding that a religion might support throwing gay people from buildings (it doesn't). That's everything to do with murdering scum, and nothing to do with religion, or culture. Policing women's bodies or choices (abortion) would have been a better example.



    Quote Originally Posted by jberks View Post
    I'm sure there are outragously homophobic statements in the Quran. There are certainly some terrible things in the old and new testaments including homophobic sections. So no, whilst Islam is a valid excuse for such acts, it no more instructs Muslims to do so than Jesus did.
    For the rest,
    Daesh certainly, also Hammas, Hezbollah and other pseudo Islamic political organisations have a track records of murdering gay people. As well as throwing them off buildings, they also drag them through the streets behind motorcycles. Try being openly gay in Egypt or many parts of Africa and see how long you live so I disagree in terms of comparison to what gay people suffer here in the UK.

    My point was that when a culture or religion (where one starts and the other ends is hard to define) harms others then we have a duty to object. Other than that, we should leave well alone.
    Last edited by Thomas Hayward; 02-01-19 at 15:10.
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  5. #2795
    Senior Member jberks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hayward View Post
    Try being openly gay in the UK. People are attacked and murdered here, each year, for the temerity of being attracted to the same ***. in addition to this, attacks have risen 80% in the last four years. So lets not pretend the UK is a safe haven, it isn't.

    If that was your point (culture/religion), that's all you had to say, rather than alluding that a religion might support throwing gay people from buildings (it doesn't). That's everything to do with murdering scum, and nothing to do with religion, or culture. Policing women's bodies or choices (abortion) would have been a better example.
    It's interesting. When I referred to throwing people off buildings for being gay, at no point did I reference any particular religion or culture. You made that connection, I didn't.

    I merely used that as a genuine case where we should actively oppose what has become a cultural practice.
    There is homophobia and racism in the Uk, of course, but we shouldn't conflate the levels. There's one thing having abuse shouted, quite another abducted and murdered and yet another again when that abduction and murder is state approved if not sanctioned. I can only go on anecdote from gay friends, and on the whole, they tell me they feel safe in the UK.

    In any case I was simply trying to find a particular cultural practice that we can all agree, is wholly unnaceptable.

    Whilst that practice is an extreme example, to clarify the "cultural" connection and wider generalisation, from that right wing reactionary fascist rag "the Guardian"
    "In Iran today, lavat (sodomy) is a capital offence and people are frequently executed for it. In Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen and Mauritania, sodomy is also punishable by death – though no executions have been reported for at least a decade.Among other Arab countries, the penalty in Algeria, Bahrain, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Somalia, Tunisia and Syria is imprisonment – up to 10 years in the case of Bahrain. In those that have no specific law against homosexuality, gay people may still be prosecuted under other laws. In Egypt, for example, an old law against “debauchery” is often used."

    I think that's enough evidence that there's a cultural problem within a group, however you categorise them.

    For balance, I should add that it's also absolutely true that when the Christian west was persecuting homosexuals a couple of hundred years ago, they actually found sanctuary in Arab countries which simply proves, as with Christianity, it's not the text as such but how it's interpreted over time.

    As far as the treatment in these cultures/countries is concerned, I hope we can all agree, it's justification for openly opposing their behaviour, which was the crux of my point.

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  6. #2796
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    No, you didn't mention the religion. However, I knew what you were doing with it (only Daesh are throwing people off of roofs - and certainly not in the UK) and so did you, let's be honest, and not pretend otherwise. It was disappointing and you're better than that. Matter closed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jberks View Post
    It's interesting. When I referred to throwing people off buildings for being gay, at no point did I reference any particular religion or culture. You made that connection, I didn't.

    I merely used that as a genuine case where we should actively oppose what has become a cultural practice.
    There is homophobia and racism in the Uk, of course, but we shouldn't conflate the levels. There's one thing having abuse shouted, quite another abducted and murdered and yet another again when that abduction and murder is state approved if not sanctioned. I can only go on anecdote from gay friends, and on the whole, they tell me they feel safe in the UK.

    In any case I was simply trying to find a particular cultural practice that we can all agree, is wholly unnaceptable.

    Whilst that practice is an extreme example, to clarify the "cultural" connection and wider generalisation, from that right wing reactionary fascist rag "the Guardian"
    "In Iran today, lavat (sodomy) is a capital offence and people are frequently executed for it. In Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen and Mauritania, sodomy is also punishable by death – though no executions have been reported for at least a decade.Among other Arab countries, the penalty in Algeria, Bahrain, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Somalia, Tunisia and Syria is imprisonment – up to 10 years in the case of Bahrain. In those that have no specific law against homosexuality, gay people may still be prosecuted under other laws. In Egypt, for example, an old law against “debauchery” is often used."

    I think that's enough evidence that there's a cultural problem within a group, however you categorise them.

    For balance, I should add that it's also absolutely true that when the Christian west was persecuting homosexuals a couple of hundred years ago, they actually found sanctuary in Arab countries which simply proves, as with Christianity, it's not the text as such but how it's interpreted over time.

    As far as the treatment in these cultures/countries is concerned, I hope we can all agree, it's justification for openly opposing their behaviour, which was the crux of my point.


  7. #2797
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    Disgusting woman. I hope they lock her up and throw away the key. Doctors are supposed to have a duty of care.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...54VQECWqX8wZNY

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  9. #2798
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jberks View Post
    Yes, and
    the European Food Safety authority found in 2004 that the failure rate for the much-trumpeted penetrating captive bolt stunning in conventional mechanical slaughter may be as high as 6.6%, and up to 31% for non-penetrating captive bolt and electric stunning. This equates to millions of animals each year that experience incredible suffering. But the BVA has not mounted a campaign on this.

    There is no moral high ground here.
    .
    Who are the "BVA"?

    And who said anything inferring gaining "Moral High Ground"?

    We're talking facts, starting from poxy chocolate that should not have any meat products in it.

    And it doesn't. Thank goodness!

    I was referring to "religious" slaughter outside the UK, Jeremy.

    There are No controls, just the Mullah or Rabbi saying a quick prayer then the throat-cutters get on with it. If you want I will find video of brutality by all "religious" throat-cutters. Several are in prisons now because of it.

    As a result, UK abattoirs are monitored and well policed.

    So are the 5 Cypriot ones.

    I'm discussing the UK and I refute your arbitrary figures.

    Are you inferring that there are religious abatoirs in the UK which are not under the same monitoring?

    You seem to take everything as a personal attack on you and yours, and go on the defensive without cause or reason.

    It makes it difficult to hold a discussion.

    .

  10. #2799
    Senior Member payno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_S-V6_2004 View Post
    .
    Who are the "BVA"?

    And who said anything inferring gaining "Moral High Ground"?

    We're talking facts, starting from poxy chocolate that should not have any meat products in it.

    And it doesn't. Thank goodness!

    I was referring to "religious" slaughter outside the UK, Jeremy.

    There are No controls, just the Mullah or Rabbi saying a quick prayer then the throat-cutters get on with it. If you want I will find video of brutality by all "religious" throat-cutters. Several are in prisons now because of it.

    As a result, UK abattoirs are monitored and well policed.

    So are the 5 Cypriot ones.

    I'm discussing the UK and I refute your arbitrary figures.

    Are you inferring that there are religious abatoirs in the UK which are not under the same monitoring?

    You seem to take everything as a personal attack on you and yours, and go on the defensive without cause or reason.

    It makes it difficult to hold a discussion.

    .
    Jim there are abattoirs in the UK that are allowed to slaughter with out stunning on religious grounds apparently they talk nicely to them and cover there eyes so they don't feel pain when there throat is cut
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  11. #2800
    Senior Member Jag-Black's Avatar
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    We could compromise by throwing pigs off tall buildings, bless them in the lift on the way up.

    Perhaps the Islamic meat police should be rewarded for their vigilance in their quest for their preference of prime meat and chocolate, because other religions might mumble about it but don't even have their own Meat Force on the beat.

    The example recipe below is for a a standard Roman Catholic and not a Jesus. Jesus recipes cater for a body made of bread and are considered vegan friendly.


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