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Thread: Pollution and other Scaremongering Money Spinner Scams

  1. #11
    DevonDavid
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    Sorry Red - it's not about giving you, or anyone else "a break" - I just think it's important to start with the truth. So - he is NOT going to "hand over £5k per vehicle" - there's a sliding scale for older vehicles and the maximum payment (for what would probably be fairly few taxis) is £5k. If your cab was between 14 and 15 years old, you would get £1200. If less than 10 years old - nothing at all !!
    There's also a "delicensing payment" but I can't discover what that is.
    Looks like a new Taxi meeting the regulations would be a bit north of £50k so is it really that big a deal ??

    This isn't a debate about climate change and/or "global warming" - there's no doubt that the air in many major cities is causing health issues - WHO estimates 7m deaths annually might be directly or indirectly attributable to air quality - so not just London but most big towns and cities throughout the world are looking at ways of cleaning up the air. Just look at what is happening in Paris, or Rome as two examples.

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  3. #12
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    He will hand out up to £5k per vehicle David and as regards it being a big deal I suppose that depends where your sitting .
    Cleaning up the Air is a Laudable Aspiration in anyones book and I am not attempting to smash up any Spinning Jennys
    but its an interesting position the Labour Party finds itself in regarding London and its relationship with its own Mayor .

  4. #13
    DevonDavid
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    We can agree to differ - I just don't think this is a political issue driven by any "Labour Party Agenda". It is impossible pretty much anywhere in the world to buy leaded petrol (except in Afghanistan, Algeria, Iraq, Burma, Yemen and North Korea.). That's because it is now acknowledged that lead in the atmosphere is not good. I think there is general agreement now that the whole "diesel is better" argument is discredited and that more measures are required to try and improve the air quality in towns and cities (and this is happening all over the world.)

    My first reply was prompted by posts from both you and Jim which implied that this was part of some Left-wing Mayoral posturing with no sense or substance. I just don't buy that. I know I am in a minority (yet again) in believing the reality of climate change and the evidence that it has been accelerated by "man-made" activity. I know that makes me a hypocrite in the sense that I drive a 4.0 "gas guzzler" and two diesel engine cars. However, the Jaguar does a couple of thousand miles a year, and the other two rarely venture into any of our major urban areas these days so I'm not making much difference in the great scheme of things.
    That's not the same as commercial vehicles that have a very different annual mileage and usage.

    It won't happen overnight, it will take decades. It is much more of an issue in (say) Beijing or Mexico City but we can't lecture the rest of the world unless there's some sort of example set "at home".

    The whole "Uber issue" is, in my opinion, a different thing altogether and probably DOES have a political dimension. The present Labour is basically against free enterprise and seeks to control and regulate rights and conditions of service for workers - particularly in that grey-area now called the 'gig economy'. Conservative policy is for less regulation and less control and a more relaxed attitude to zero-hours contracts and restrictive practices. There's good arguments for and against both ideologies but that's probably a different thread !!

  5. #14
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    I agree with most of your post David , its not so much Left Wing Labour Posturing , could you put Left Wing and Khan
    in the same sentence whilst retaining credibility ? Its just these are all easy issues to solve David , you effectively Tax
    the Motorist out of the City , where are these affordable Houses ? Many of us who have an association with London
    raised any eyebrow when the question of these houses were first raised , its my prediction that the position will remain
    unchanged from the one he inherited

  6. #15
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    Hello David,

    the magnitude of the problem is extremely difficult to measure, especially with phrases like premature deaths (not deaths as you stated) as there is no definition of premature. While it is easy to measure the constituent parts of the atmosphere, how much is too much and who can judge that level? Obviously the smaller the quantities of the detrimental substances the better, but what is tolerable? Borrowing someone else's phrase the severity or otherwise of the poison is in the size of the dose.
    The green NGOs have huge influence but in general tend to exagerate a problem and their only response is to ban whatever it is they dislike. They cannot seem to even consider a sensible compromise, and one such substance they got banned was DDT, all on a report, later discredited, by a lady who's name I have forgotten. Certainly DDT can be nasty but it was effective in killing mosquitos so the ban had the effect of killing people instead. I understand that ban was lifte eventually, at least for that application.

    I don't know the answer but do feel we should be more critical and sceptical of the expensive solutions proposed? Electric vehicles are a sledgehammer to crack a nut, as the areas considered high pollution are a very small part of the UK. Incidentally how effective is rain in clearing pollution, we have plenty of that?

    Alec
    2004 2.5 X Type Estate, MK 2 3.8 (Long term restoration), 2.5 P.I. Triumph saloon, 564 Hymer motorhome.

  7. #16
    DevonDavid
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    Alec - we have disagreed on this before and I accept that there is no definitive proof either way in terms of climate change and/or the effects of pollution. I also accept that 1. There are many vested interests, commercial and political, which have used the "environmental bandwagon" to further their own agendas, and 2. Pollution is not a major issue in the UK compared with many other towns and cities in the rest of the world.

    But - on the basis of what I have read (quite objectively and with a certain amount of scepticism) - I have come to the opinion that climate change is, and will continue to be, a major global issue and that human activity is accelerating and exacerbating change which it will not be possible to reverse. So - what happens in Beijing, or Mexico City, or Delhi may eventually have an impact on our own grandchildren and great grandchildren and we should not expect the citizens of those countries to change their own behaviour if we're not prepared to do likewise. I guess I'm not prepared to take the risk, for their sakes, that I am wrong and you are right.

    I just did a bit of reading on DDT (which my parents used to spray liberally around the kitchen from an Esso manufactured spray called "Flit" which was 5% DDT) - I don't think it is quite fair to say "discredited" - it became less effective as mosquitos developed immunity, and some of the claims that it was carcinogenic were questioned and largely dismissed, but there would seem to be data which provides strong evidence that it is toxic and harmful to a large number of species of wildlife.
    That's based on 30 minutes research, so by no means comprehensive, but not quite the "proven case" you would seem to imply.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Rowley_1812's Avatar
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    My suggestion on an earlier thread of there being a connection between the exploitation and questionable use of the earth's less favourable mineral riches by mankind and the seemingly and increasingly unstable weather patterns was unceremoniously poo-poo'd.

    Admittedly it may be generations before the exact consequences and reasons are realised and conclusively proven or otherwise. However I do not believe that the activities of the human race can or should be ruled out in terms of the effect it might be having upon weather, temperature and the changing conditions.

    Claims by the opposition that climate change and/or global warming are absolutely nothing to do with our activities on earth I believe to be short-sighted and erroneous and to ignore the possibility and do nothing is irresponsible and foolhardy.

    As for anything being politically driven, we all know that politicians are far more concerned about their own social position and (misplaced) distinction than adhering to the true wants and needs of the common people. Unless of course the electorate choose to put up a strong enough fight to place that social position under threat in which circumstances it has been known for u-turns to occur.

    PS ... 'premature' : "occurring or done before the usual or proper time, too early" .
    2005 (55) X-type 2.0d S saloon ~ Zircon/Champagne/Belize.

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  10. #18
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    Hello David,

    my last post has nothing whatsoever to do with climate change.
    The report that caused DDT to be banned was discredited.
    Whether mosquitos developed an immunity I don't know, but it is documented that many died than otherwise would have had the ban not been in place. My real point was that green NGOs with the best intentions do have blinkered views which can be detrimental.

    Alec
    2004 2.5 X Type Estate, MK 2 3.8 (Long term restoration), 2.5 P.I. Triumph saloon, 564 Hymer motorhome.

  11. #19
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    Hello Rowley,

    "Claims by the opposition that climate change and/or global warming are absolutely nothing to do with our activities on earth I believe to be short-sighted and erroneous and to ignore the possibility and do nothing is irresponsible and foolhardy."

    Yes the increase in CO2 has a slight warming effect, a matter of a few watts per square metre, but the globe also regulates it's temperature.
    The efforts we are making to try and control it is futile as the technology we use is ineffective and extremely expensive.

    Alec
    2004 2.5 X Type Estate, MK 2 3.8 (Long term restoration), 2.5 P.I. Triumph saloon, 564 Hymer motorhome.

  12. #20
    Senior Member Rowley_1812's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman View Post
    Hello Rowley,

    Yes the increase in CO2 has a slight warming effect, a matter of a few watts per square metre, but the globe also regulates it's temperature.
    The efforts we are making to try and control it is futile as the technology we use is ineffective and extremely expensive.

    Alec

    That is as may be Alec and I do not contradict it. The point I make is that we know not exactly to what extent our activities with regard to commercial, universal and fuel waste disposal are a contributory factor.

    Until we do know, which may take a very long time to establish without doubt either way, I am suggesting that it should be our preference to err on the side of caution rather than disregard any possibility that we are not unfairly belittling scientific opinion.
    2005 (55) X-type 2.0d S saloon ~ Zircon/Champagne/Belize.

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