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Thread: Northern Ireland border

  1. #1
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    Northern Ireland border

    PLEASE RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINION HERE AS THIS ONE IS A DIFFICULT SUBJECT.

    I suspect that most of us remember the "troubles" and this a problematic subject so if the moderators want to stop this discussion, they are welcome too.

    As the Brexit may be a hard one due to this problem. I am very confused by what does the EU want here. I agree that there should be no hard border but it is not right that Northern Ireland should be taken out of the union unless the population of the province want this to occur.

    So let you know you why I am confused, if the goods and people can be freely moved over the border on the island forcing northern Ireland to remain in the common market would that not mean that the goods that are transported between the EU and Ireland be subject to control in Britain and in France to make sure that the correct duties has been paid.

    As the majority of goods from Ireland that are transported to the continent have to go through the United kingdom and vice versa would this not virtually end due the problems at the border. I don't know how many of you have driven on the coast road of Croatia and waited for half a day to go through the border to Bosnia and it this case you are only out of the EU for about half a mile and then you are back into Croatia.

    Surely it is in the best interest of the EU and the United kingdom to sort this out. I see Britain making offers and the EU just saying that it wants its own way. I see this problem being blown out of all proportion and it is going to be a catastrophe for Northern Ireland and the republic of Ireland just so that the EU can prove a point.
    Grumpy Old Git
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    Senior Member Zero123's Avatar
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    The EU wants to use NI as a means to "punish" the UK and hopefully (for them) get us to reconsider and stay in the EU!
    "I know I'm a pessimist because my glass is always half empty...even when it's full".

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    Senior Member johnandhisjags's Avatar
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    Eire see it as an opportunity to have a united Ireland and the EU see it as a bargaining chip how sad that people lives and well being matter so little to these principled men. Their principles mean more than the lives of ordinary people.

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    Northern Ireland(NI) and the Republic of Ireland(RoI) have enjoyed an open border for years.As stated above,the majority of goods traffic from RoI will travel Dublin/Belfast then via Dover/Calias to access Europe.Possibly some stuff traveling to NW France will use Cork/Roscoff.
    Traffic from NI will use Belfast/Stranrar,then travel across the UK to Dover.

    So what is needed is to treat through traffic traveling via RoI differently to traffic terminating/originating there.This could be done by adding a suitable checkpoint at the exit port,possibly funded by HMRC,or is this too simple to work properly?

    As RoI could,just possibly,become a hotspot for potential smuggling into the UK from Europe,there needs to be some sort of check imposed,but to make any kind of financial sense for the smuggler,huge numbers will have to be involved,which should make detection a little easier.
    I cannot,for example,see lorryloads of Syrians being brought into the UK in this manner.
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    Senior Member jberks's Avatar
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    Can someone please name a working, uncontrolled border between 2 separate economic areas?
    So the EU's view is Ireland will have an impossible situation where items cheaper in Southern Ireland will simply drive over the border unchecked and end up in the UK (still unchecked) and vice versa. Items made in the North or on the mainland but not to EU rules will be freely available in Southern Ireland and once there can travel unchecked into the rest of the EU. The only way to stop that would be to have internal EU checks, which of course goes against the principles of free movement.
    Is it resolvable with technology? Possibly but there's no such proven system in place today. If I import a container of dodgy (but legal in the post Brexit UK) Chinese goods, drive it from Liverpool into Northern Ireland. Drive it over the border somewhere unmonitored and then park it a Southern Ireland port for sending to the EU, at present there are no checks that will detect that. They can legally be driven unchecked straight into France. That's their concern. We are asking them to open a massive loophole in their borders for no discernible benefit to themselves. What motivation do they have to make life easy for us?
    I keep hearing that the EU is punishing us. How true that motivation is, we can't be sure but ultimately, why would they do us a favour, that could prove costly to them?

    As for a united Ireland, we have to remember that Northern Ireland voted remain so they're being taken out of the EU against their will. Same for Scotland. What pro leaver's need to remember is that had the vote been an election we'd have a hung parliament. It wasn't a landslide or even a consensus and I genuinely believe most of the anger and derision directed at "remoaners" has more to do with the fact they know if the vote was repeated, they could very easily lose. In other words, they won by a fluke and are terrified that if that perspective was tested, it would be proven.

    I've heard some interesting suggestions about how Brexit should have been handled but to be honest, it's going exactly as I expected it to when I voted no. I did so, not because I love the EU but rather, I felt the current fiasco was always inevitable. Actually, where I was wrong is around how constructive and co-operative the EU have been. I expected infighting and malice that would have made our negotiations utterly impossible.

    The problem with the leave argument was that whilst many agreed they wanted to leave, nobody asked what that actually meant or what shape it might take. How we should handle the hundreds of complex issues we have to resolve. Had we done, I suspect we'd have had no more that 5% vote for any one potential outcome. There was, and remains, no credible consensus. We knew what a remain vote meant. We had no clue what a leave one meant. The truth is, nobody, not Cameron or Farrage expected it to go that way and so nobody had planned for it.

    When I hear Boris and co say "it will all be fine, stop worrying", I find myself getting angry. The world doesn't run on wishes and I'm not dumb enough to believe he has anything more. They're driving us, flat out, towards a concrete wall, we can turn left or right and at this late stage might still miss it, but they can't agree which way to turn and even if we do, we might skid into the wall anyway. Meantime they're smiling at us and saying "It will all be fine". I listened to a new show where someone said to a politician "What was your plan?" How I laughed. These people genuinely believed there was a plan. They're making it up as they go along.
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  9. #6
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    Many of you are too young to remember how it worked before your leaders and nose pullers "The EU" existed.

    You are under German and Belgian leadership despite your fathers fighting and many dying for that to never happen.

    The self interested politicians let this happen and expanded the membership to 28 for greed, money, kudos, personal gains and comforts, whatever. The GBP didn't protest. And lost control in the process.

    And then we ended up paying more to subsidise the 22+ sponger dead weight countries whose nationals now come here freely and bleed us even more, some steal our cars and rob us and go back freely to sell their swag.

    Do wake up guys, you are better thinkers than this. Use it. Look around, under your own feet.

    Our sleeping "MEPs" didn't veto any of the absurd regulations their masters slipped under their noses. Now we've learned that they could have but didn't.

    Trade isn't the issue to the GBP. It's about going on holiday without having to do anything.

    They've always complained about fluctuating exchange rates and many moaned "Why don't we have the Euro like everyone else?".

    Instead of realising that the GB£ kept our economy better time and time again.

    As for EU trade...

    We not only import from many of them, with a trade deficit of £270billion, remember?! We now also import tainted foods from more than 100 other hygeine-uncontrollable countries like Pakistan, India, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco, and landfill crap from China, Malaysia and others.

    I didn't even know there are 100+ non-EU countries! Many of you still think our main trading is from the EU. It isn't. It's around 30% as recent pro-EU propaganda charts have shown.

    Stop the bleating chaps, you aren't listening and you don't need to know details until it's all done and dusted.

    You don't understand what a "Hard exit" is, just like the MPs who aren't in the negotiations, making absurd demands and trying to reverse the referendum.

    Like King Canute who tried so hard to command the sea tide to stop.

    All non-EU countries will sign new deals by March or before the post-Brexit divorce period of sameness ends.

    I know how it worked, and apart from the French throwing a tantrum for a week now and then, just to feel they were in control of their border, they soon went back to normal when we reciprocated, with some duty charged but big duty-free allowances, and automatic visa stamps on arrival, then no visa needed. Then rinse and repeat.

    When the French blocked us we went to Ostend instead of Calais and could then drive to Germany.

    There were not the big lorry queues we have today, migrant smuggling was very difficult if not impossible.

    There were always a bunch of drunk English or Scots or Irish louts in skirts with a van overloaded with far too much beer and brandy shouting at customs officials to know why they should pay any duty since they were coming home. They did hold us up for hours. Plonkers.

    If you think the EU loudmouthed speakers know any process details of those you've mentioned here, you are mistaken.

    They have no knowledge.of details. They've not bothered yet.

    They simply demand to "protect the EU borders" in pathetic efforts to derail us.

    Fortunately Theresa is holding her own. Good girl.

    Separate Northern Ireland from the UK?
    So
    It's not in their power.

    By what means, scaremongering the Irish people? Dropping propaganda leaflets like in the war?

    I think they are sterner than that.

    The people of Northern Ireland have voted and even killed to stay in the UK.

    You chaps forget easily.

    And as I've said many times, the negotiations will only conclude at the last minute, and a deal Will be struck.

    The GBP should not know details, and I'm glad they don't, and that reflects in your lack of answers to my repeated question "what details or clauses does David Davis object to, to have made him rebel to overthrow Theresa May?".

    Would he be driving hard for a hard exit now, as he implies?

    That means Theresa is still trying for a good partnership deal.

    The EU clothheads Will concede and make the necessary exceptions.

    They Must.

    Big customs duties and delays are not in their interests.

    Or they will not only lose €billions, but their gravy train jobs too.

    Other countries' citizens like Italy, Spain, Greece and France too are watching how we are being stonewalled, how they are treating us with contempt, how they are trying to keep us under their fascist undemocratic control, and they will be next to vote Out. Some will remove their current government to do so. Some already have.

    As for Irish border smuggling...

    We know little to nothing of what goes on now, and that will continue.

    As for Irish peace?

    You tell me.

    .
    Last edited by Jim_S-V6_2004; 15-10-18 at 23:53.

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    Senior Member iwvc's Avatar
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    The "Irish question" has been blown up by the EU negotiators as they know the history and desire that we (i.e. the Governments and the citizens of NI and the Republic of Ireland) do not re-instate a formal frontier border between NI and the Republic of Ireland. Our reasons for wanting this open border are long standing and too complex to rehearse in this post. From the EU point of view the issue is really customs charges and procedures and they seem to refuse to accept that this can be sorted by electronic or other technological methods. The argument that goods failing to comply with EU technical standards will flood into the EU from GB and NI through the Republic of Ireland is utter 80110cks. A company based in the Republic of Ireland is just as likely to import goods from outside the EU, say China, India, or the US and send them on by shipping to a French or Spanish port as act as a conduit for a UK based company importing to NI and hopping over the current border to sell on to the EU. Whatever rules are in place to monitor standards of goods ON SALE anywhere in the EU will continue to be the method of policing standards.

    So as far as customs are concerned the same problems arise with imports into GB by ship or air to get over the sea barrier. Our industry (as do the industries in the majority of the EU countries) wants a seamless as possible customs check. They sell more into us than we sell out remember. If for technical standards on products we accept EU ones as "safe" for us it doesn't matter to EU producers if we have an alternative different standard for stuff from China, India or US as, for example, they wont have to change their designs / materials / manufacturing procedures unless they wish to take advantage of using the alternative standards because they are cheaper to meet or whatever. There is probably a large amount of current EU trade to the Republic of Ireland that passes through GB and NI on its way from "mainland" EU and vice versa and this needs to have some form of agreement that customs sealed containers need not be physically checked on entry to GB at a port and either side of the NI Republic of Ireland border. Not exactly a huge problem though I admit someone will try to take advantage of it - but no more than say people smugglers who get into the EU at some point and dump their cargoes in a different one.

    Ian C
    ps jberks over 50% OF THOSE WHO ACTUALLY CARED ENOUGH TO VOTE voted to leave. Yes it was a surprise to me (I voted "out") but you can't really say that this bit or that bit of the UK voted to stay and therefore they should be allowed to. Neither side seemed capable of articulating any sensible arguments - right wing hardliners on one side and "project fear" on the other but I voted on the basis of my personal knowledge of the way the EU institutions work and my desire to control my destiny as far as possible through the use of my vote in establishing local, national and EU administrations. I would prefer the EU to be radically overhauled to be more accountable but realised for the outset that Cameron's bold statement that he could change everything was doomed to failure. The EU negotiation now seems to be to make life as difficult for the UK as possible, not because they think the decision to leave can be reversed but to send messages to other member states that they will suffer if they try to leave as well. For some countries that rely heavily on direct or indirect EU support leaving could indeed be economically catastrophic. I would hate to be part of the catalyst of the break up of the EU and the emergence of hard line right wing national governments but if this does occur it will be down to the introspective and insular attitudes of the current leaders rather than anything we have done.
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    The problem in Europe from my experience is that they don't understand the problem with Northern Ireland. The majority of the people that I have meet here in Germany still believe that is still the same situation as in the 1920's where the Germans tried to organise rebellions. They still think that Britain is an occupying power.

    When they are told that the army was sent in to protect Roman Catholics from paramilitary organisations which are still in existence although hopefully disarmed they are shocked. I have yet to meet a German either from the East or the west who knows this to be the case.

    I agree that it is too complex to be discussed here but this what Britain has educate the Europeans about. They understand about the Basque separatists being terrorists but not that this was also the case in northern Ireland.
    Grumpy Old Git
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    Senior Member fat controller's Avatar
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    'Hung Parliament' - one of my favourite phrases, as that is what should happen to the lot of them!!

    I really don't know how the issue with the Irish border can be resolved, all I do know is that Junker & Co are using it as a weapon against the UK, and I find that utterly abhorrent to be honest. When you think of the death and destruction that was centred around the troubles in Ireland/Northern Ireland, to use the sensitivities around that for a political gain to me just demonstrates how low these people are.

    Firstly, I think we should remember that it was NOT the GBP that started all of this - - David Cameron and his cronies are wholly responsible for the whole sorry mess. See, they asked a question, and asked that question at entirely the wrong time. People were sick to the back teeth of politicians and their lies, and were (are) sick to the back teeth of cuts to services whilst enduring rising costs and rising taxation; they were fed up of trying to get a doctors appointment, only to be told that they couldn't get one for weeks. So, when Mr Cameron and his bunch asked the question, they thought that we would be good little boys and girls, and return a vote in favour of Europe and they could then use the result of that vote to quieten the likes of Boris and even Farage. There was very little proper information coming from either side, but for a lot of people they already knew what the EU was like and how it had decimated our country in many respects; so, they voted to get us out.

    Had Cameron and his lot taken things a bit more seriously and given us real information (and not just the utter bull that formed project fear) showing both the positives and the negatives, then maybe the vote would have been different. I do think that a lot of people also thought that it was all going to be a flash in the pan and that there was no way that it going to be an out vote, so they didn't bother voting - - and I do wonder how many of those that are baying now for a so called 'peoples vote' actually voted in the referendum.

    There are also a number of things that really annoy me about the whole thing - firstly, why is everything that is reported/stated biased to show us how bad it is going to be? Absolutely zero effort has gone in to researching and reporting potential positives; very little effort has gone into the planning of how we can make things work - they spent months fighting with each other, before suddenly realising that the leave date was looming. And when all is said and done, what is so good about being in the EU? Nobody bothered to try and sell us the benefits of that one - is that because they know it is a crock of sh*t? Our roads and pavements are a mess, our health service is on its knees, our schools are in a hell of a state with unfit buildings, and having to always hold their hands out for donations,and we are often tied up in more red tape than is healthy simply because we have to adhere to some rule that has been created in a different country by people we do not know of, nor have we voted them into a position of power.
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    Senior Member Rowley_1812's Avatar
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    Given the radical and inherent differences between the various Countries within the EU, not only political but also social and not unnaturally historical, it should be understandable why and how the respective Countries and 'peoples' cannot possibly have any credible or meaningful appreciation of the problems facing the intricacies of the UK separating themselves from their Union, most particularly the Irish border (trade) problem.

    There has been and always will be fundamental disagreement, and in some respects disapproval, of the independent laws, history, determination and fixity of purpose when comparing the EU Countries, but that will continue to be their problem.

    It just so happens that the gradual development of the EU into what it now represents has, by stealth and some might add both questionable and unprincipled development, overridden individual National preferences, likings and proclivity such that the means to an end has been achieved almost unwittingly.

    All that said, of course it is not the 'peoples' of the member Countries who are able to have a say in the ultimate Brexit deal but a select group of arguably corrupt and dictatorial unelected EU bureaucrats who not only have personal career issues regarding the outcome but also potentially nefarious and anti-social questions to answer if they get things wrong and allow the UK too much lenience.

    The Irish border issue is the responsibility of the UK Government and absolutely must sit comfortably within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

    The fact that this problem was neither considered at the time of the Referendum nor was it ever discussed during pre-Referendum debate is irrelevant. It is a problem now and it must be sorted and the UK must come to a solution with which the EU must agree for it is surely not within the capability or understanding of the EU to ultimately determine the outcome of this very specific border (trade) issue.
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