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Thread: At rest Voltages. Post start voltages on a 1999 S type 4.0 V8.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_S-V6_2004 View Post
    .
    Point me at some please 04str.

    .
    Absolutely typical batteries like this https://uk.farnell.com/yuasa/swl750/...0battery%2012V

    on page 4 of the data sheet you can see it's expected to be charged at a constant 13.65V.

    Typical circuit for 15V source is as simple as shown in post #2 here https://www.thebackshed.com/forum/fo...TID=10999&PN=1

    The battery is just lead acid as are normal car ones. That will be why Platinum Prestige are happy.

    For some reason you have singled out a different kind of battery with different needs. Don't buy that kind unless the charging system can handle it!

  2. #52
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    My Lucas LPO19 seems to be a lead acid one designed for stop start?

    Therefore should be able to be charged by the 4.0 S type system. That doesn't explain the low voltage readings after a good 150 mile run does it?

    The conductance tester said it was fine, the volts shown on the tester even matched what my volt mater said, and after a good 24hr boost with the Ctek 5 it was showing a battery level that I was happy with, although there could have been some "float charge" going on, the Ctek had gone into maintenance mode.

    Which is simply confusing the issue. My thinking is is I'm expecting that level of CCA, and I'm not getting that level because the car smart system can't quite do it, is the battery at risk of never being able to provide that current.

    Making my head hurt...
    2001 3.0 SE Auto, Satnav, winter pack. Dark Blue, all the toys.
    2004 3.0 Sovereign Estate. Winter pack. Fixed. For Sale.
    2005 Estate X type 2.2 Sport.
    2000 V8 3.2 XJ8 LWB. "Prom" car. Lovely. Should sell this one too really...
    2005 "AllyCat", 3.0 XJ6 SE.
    2000 S type 4.0 V8. Latest toy.
    VFR800A and a VFR 800F

    Still beating cancer. Trevor 2, Cancer 0.

    Sure I took the Red pill....

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by orsom weels View Post
    I really don't see why you would want to consider this. If you have a charging problem with the original equipment, why not just address that & fix it?
    Your 4.0l Has the same charging system as my old 3.0l & in over twelve years & 160,000 miles it never gave me any battery related issues, despite often spending weeks at a time doing sub 5 mile journeys. As Jim well knows, I have contacted the Platinum Prestige battery manufacturers to get their take on things & have had it confirmed that in their opinion, if things are working as they should be, our cars charging systems are quite capable of looking after their batteries. They are happy to recommend their batteries for use in our cars, & have put in writing that they will stand by any warranties for their products if they suffer premature failure when fitted to our cars. In my opinion, they wouldn't do that if they thought our cars charging systems couldn't charge their products properly. I think some of our S types may suffer from some of the systems not going to sleep correctly & therefore putting extra stress on their batteries. If everything shuts down as intended, they should give no problems.
    I went out to my 2.5 yesterday after it had stood unused & untouched since December the 13th. I was unable to drive for a few days before Xmas & with Mrs O on holiday, her car was parked behind & easier to get out when we needed one. I have just treated myself to a new iCarsoft LR V2.0, so decided to have a little play. It has a battery voltage check facility which showed my 5 year old Platinum Prestige 019 had held on to 12.3 of it's precious volts. A little lower than ideal, admittedly, but still perfectly adequate under the circumstances, it was a bit cold. I do believe that once the voltage drops below a certain level, this does cause systems to wake up & put even more drain on things, so a weak battery will perhaps show it's self earlier than on other makes/models, but if the battery is reasonably healthy & the car gets a run every now & then, it should be OK.

    Regards, OW
    More to keep myself entertained than anything else if I'm honest. I like messing with stuff like this because I find it chllenging to understand why this route was taken, with the S type being lightly related to the Lincoln I wonder if Jaguar simply inherited that charging system and didn't put any thought into it as it worked.

    Again the thing I picked up on with the video is that the intake air temperature is taken into consideration by the smart charge system, presumably it is programmed to provide more voltage on 0 Fahrenheit or less days that can happen in the US as the battery will be cold too, and might need a bit of a boost.

    Well, in the UK it's very rare indeed that we get temperatures that low, so my theory is that this was missed by Jaguar, and because of this missed condition the battery doesn't get this added boost when we do our winter cold starts.

    Whereas I do know that the X type, in below zero conditions can and will give 15.4v for as long as the battery needs it to "fast charge" from cold, the feature being built in because the driver might well be asking for heated seats, heated screens, heater, air con, demist as well as the radio and headlamps. All which usually, from cold start, take a while before the car is running fast enough for the alternator to have an easy time. The reverse off the drive, to the end of the street, waiting for traffic situation, not average speed running.

    In my case the car would only need about 1/4 mile before it was in a stream of traffic at A road speeds, as it's pretty quiet on Hayling usually. Others aren't so lucky.

    This was why I was playing with the idea of bypassing the smart charge system, then if any of our fellow users have cold start issues, this might be a way out.
    2001 3.0 SE Auto, Satnav, winter pack. Dark Blue, all the toys.
    2004 3.0 Sovereign Estate. Winter pack. Fixed. For Sale.
    2005 Estate X type 2.2 Sport.
    2000 V8 3.2 XJ8 LWB. "Prom" car. Lovely. Should sell this one too really...
    2005 "AllyCat", 3.0 XJ6 SE.
    2000 S type 4.0 V8. Latest toy.
    VFR800A and a VFR 800F

    Still beating cancer. Trevor 2, Cancer 0.

    Sure I took the Red pill....

  4. #54
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    If your car is 2001 then it is the original design. My car has a different charging system, and I suspect so does the X-Type (it may be a 3rd type of course).

    I suppose ways to compare would be disconnect battery after the 150 miles and see what voltage is in the morning. Separately, charge with ctek and again see what voltage is in the morning.

    By all means then stick a hefty load on for 3-10 mins to see how fast the volts drop.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    04str 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 04str View Post
    Absolutely typical batteries like this https://uk.farnell.com/yuasa/swl750/...0battery%2012V

    on page 4 of the data sheet you can see it's expected to be charged at a constant 13.65V.

    Typical circuit for 15V source is as simple as shown in post #2 here https://www.thebackshed.com/forum/fo...TID=10999&PN=1

    The battery is just lead acid as are normal car ones. That will be why Platinum Prestige are happy.

    For some reason you have singled out a different kind of battery with different needs. Don't buy that kind unless the charging system can handle it!
    .
    Thanks 04str.

    First I had a good laugh, was about to congratulate you on that great pulling of my leg, I really had a good long one.

    So thanks for that, much appreciated, I needed it!

    My sides still ache and wifey wanted to know why I was in tears!

    Then eventually, I re-read your reply and realised... oh dear, you are serious.

    You still think lead/acid means basic old-tech batteries, and you insist that there are still old-tech batteries available for cars?

    Well...

    No offence intended...

    OMG! (as modern youth expresses disbelief).

    Ok I'll just clarify for everyone whom you've just confused.

    Again...

    First... ALL car batteries are "Lead/acid" and I've explained this before and given links.

    All car batteries need acid as electrolyte, and they also have lead alloy plates, it's a chemical reaction and it can't work without these two ingredients.

    The lead is alloyed with other metals to harden it, because it's too soft for this use.

    Years ago the lead was mixed with antimony. Those batteries fully charged at 13.6 to 13.8 volts.

    Later, and currently, calcium was alloyed with the lead for the plates, for a big improvement in battery efficiency in car use.

    Calcium batteries can have either only one plate made of lead/calcium alloy, or both plates. These are referred to as "Calcium/calcium" batteries. The need of this calcium alloy plate construction for a higher charging voltage, 14.4 volts, is set in stone.

    There are also batteries which have plates made of calcium and silver alloyed with lead, such as the Varta Silver Dynamic series for our S Types. Those too need 14.4 volts to fully charge, chaps.

    The batteries I've described so far are filled with an electrolyte of liquid sulphuric acid mixed with distilled water, to cover the plates. They are known as "Flooded batteries", "Enhanced Flooded batteries" (EFB), "wet cell" batteries, "standard" batteries, and "SLI" (Starting, Lighting, and Ignition) batteries.

    After this, there are AGM (Absorbent Glass Matting) batteries, in which the plates are still calcium/lead alloy, and the acid is absorbed in fibreglass matting which is compressed against the plates. These batteries require 14.6 to 14.8 volts to fully charge, depending on their construction. The cells in these advanced batteries are either flat rectangular ones as in the liquid acid batteries, or cylindrical.

    "Stop/Start" batteries can be either flooded wet cell calcium, or AGM.

    There are also "Gel" batteries in which the acid electrolyte (now you know what that is) is in solidified (jellified) form. Gel batteries are not intended for use in cars.

    We aren't interested in other battery types since they too are not intended for use in cars. There is research and tests of batteries containing carbon going on for the next generation of car batteries.

    Now that I have put the record straight...

    The Yuasa SWL Series Batteries 04str found and linked are industrial batteries, and are not designed for use in cars.

    They are evidently not calcium technology, and you are quite right 04str, they do only need 13.6-ish volts for the 12-volt ones in the series to fully charge.

    I'm not sure about your link to the basic simple 15 volt trickle charger circuit bud, what's the reason?

    So for those who have cars which only output 13.6 volts or 13.8 volts and wouldn't mind trying one of those batteries in your car, why not?

    Just get one that fits and has 90 to 100Ah capacity.

    You need a Type 017 or Type 019 of that or any other battery series, this defines the size of the battery and the type, shape and placement of its terminals so that it will fit in your S Type.

    I think it will most definitely start your car, if it's charged, and should solve your full charging problems.

    I have no idea how fast it will charge in the car in normal use, or how long it will last. You'll be the guinea pig. People have even used charged capacitors to start and run their car, no battery at all.

    But the Type 019 batteries for Jaguar S Types which Yuasa makes are 2, the YBX3019 (95Amp/hour) and the YBX5019 (100Amp/hour).

    Here are the links for both:
    YBX5019: https://www.yuasa.co.uk/ybx5019.html

    Data Sheet: https://www.yuasa.co.uk/yuasa/datash...x/sku/YBX5019/

    YBX3019: https://www.yuasa.co.uk/ybx3019.html

    Data Sheet: https://www.yuasa.co.uk/yuasa/datash...x/sku/YBX3019/

    Note that both of these batteries are calcium/calcium plated. This means that both the negative and the positive plates are made of calcium alloy.

    So they both need 14.4 volts to fully charge, which is indicated by at least 12.7 volts after any surface charge is removed.

    Here are the links to the Yuasa Smart Charger for those batteries too. As you will see, its charging voltage outputs are 14.4 volts (flooded/wet cell calcium batteries), 14.7 volts (AGM batteries) and 15.8 volts (for recovery of stratified or sulphated batteries). There is no 13.6 or 13.8 volts.

    YCX5A Smart Charger: https://www.yuasa.co.uk/ycx5a12-e.html

    Data Sheet: https://www.yuasa.co.uk/yuasa/datash...YCX5A12%20(E)/


    As for our discussion on calcium batteries...

    Lead/antimony (i.e. non-calcium) batteries are no longer available!!

    Find some if you can. Many people with 13.6 volts and 13.8 volt charging systems will buy them immediately.

    If you have a calcium alloy battery now you know what they are, don't worry. There's no need, because your battery will still charge from a 13.6 volts supply, but will stop charging when it reaches to about 12.4 volts unless the charge voltage is higher, in which case it will charge proportionally higher.


    The Varta H3 and Exide 017TE for our cars both have calcium plates.

    Bosch batteries are also using Johnson Controls' patented "PowerFrame" grid and calcium alloy technology in the S5 (EFB) and S6 (AGM) batteries for our cars so it seems they are now part of the same group with Varta:

    Bosch S5 (EFB): https://www.boschautoparts.com/en/au...s/s5-batteries

    Bosch S6 (AGM): https://www.boschautoparts.com/en/au...ance-batteries

    Here's the Hankook battery, also calcium alloy: https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/hankook-mf60038.html

    Titanium: https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/titanium-t60038.html

    Varta Silver Dynamic H3: https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/varta-h3.html

    All are calcium alloy.



    You all now know what EFB, AGM, calcium, calcium/calcium, silver/calcium and lead/antimony batteries are.

    And you also now know that ALL car batteries are "lead/acid", whether lead/antimony, calcium alloy, AGM, Start/Stop, or Gel.

    So, in conclusion, 04str, you are right that there are still new non-calcium batteries available, which fully charge at 13.6 volts.

    But... they are not intended for use in cars.

    All battery technology has moved on to calcium alloy, there are No non-calcium, so you're just creating false hope and confusion.

    By all means let us/me have links to Type 017 and Type 019 batteries for our cars which clearly state they will fully charge on less than 14.4 volts, I'm looking in vain myself for over 4 years.

    Thanks.

    .

  6. #56
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost it View Post
    My Lucas LPO19 seems to be a lead acid one designed for stop start?

    Therefore should be able to be charged by the 4.0 S type system. That doesn't explain the low voltage readings after a good 150 mile run does it?

    The conductance tester said it was fine, the volts shown on the tester even matched what my volt mater said, and after a good 24hr boost with the Ctek 5 it was showing a battery level that I was happy with, although there could have been some "float charge" going on, the Ctek had gone into maintenance mode.

    Which is simply confusing the issue. My thinking is is I'm expecting that level of CCA, and I'm not getting that level because the car smart system can't quite do it, is the battery at risk of never being able to provide that current.

    Making my head hurt...
    .
    Let me try to help Lost One.

    Clear your head first.

    Forget the recent confusion.

    Your battery like All car battery types, is a "lead/acid" battery.

    So are all wet cell, calcium, AGM, and Gel batteries too. Because they All contain lead plates, whether they are calcium alloy or not, and they also contain electrolyte which is acid.

    Whereas calcium alloy plate batteries are filled with liquid acid electrolyte and are called "Flooded" or "wet cell" batteries, in AGM batteries the acid is absorbed in fibreglass matting and doesn't slosh around.

    "Stop/start" batteries can be either calcium wet cell, or AGM.

    Here's your battery: https://www.battery2u.co.uk/lucas-ca...19--lp019.aspx

    Its a "standard" 95Ah hour, i don't think it's a Stop/Start battery, I saw a general spiel for all batteries on an eBay sellers site, very badly written.

    As you can see it's a wet cell calcium battery.

    So it needs? 14.4 volts for several hours to fully charge.

    Battery experts in articles that I've read say that a low battery will not fully charge even during a whole 8 hour journey at motorway speeds even when the car provides 14.4 volts.

    I don't know.

    Certainly your 4.0 S Type can't provide 14.4 volts as it was not designed to do that, because original batteries were lead/antimony plated, not calcium alloy plated.

    Focus on these points and ignore the confusions.

    I'm interested in the voltage produced by your X Type when you have time, but don't worry if not, it's just for my own curiosity.

    I'll find you a comparative State of Charge chart...

    Here you go:



    So as you can see a flooded (calcium) battery is only about 75% charged at 12.4 volts, and is fully charged at 12.7 volts, but an AGM battery is only about 80% charged at 12.7 volts, and fully charged at 12.80+ volts.

    We're in an age where 0.1 volts is a chasm!

    .
    Last edited by Jim_S-V6_2004; 04-01-19 at 03:35.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Lost it's Avatar
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    Just to confuse the issue my 2007 VFR Vtec uses a gel battery because it's actually mounted leaning in and down as Honda packaged the space very tightly. And the standard Yuasa ones are very expensive for a 9 amp hour battery...
    2001 3.0 SE Auto, Satnav, winter pack. Dark Blue, all the toys.
    2004 3.0 Sovereign Estate. Winter pack. Fixed. For Sale.
    2005 Estate X type 2.2 Sport.
    2000 V8 3.2 XJ8 LWB. "Prom" car. Lovely. Should sell this one too really...
    2005 "AllyCat", 3.0 XJ6 SE.
    2000 S type 4.0 V8. Latest toy.
    VFR800A and a VFR 800F

    Still beating cancer. Trevor 2, Cancer 0.

    Sure I took the Red pill....

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost it View Post
    Just to confuse the issue my 2007 VFR Vtec uses a gel battery because it's actually mounted leaning in and down as Honda packaged the space very tightly. And the standard Yuasa ones are very expensive for a 9 amp hour battery...
    .
    It's normal for gel batteries to be used in motorcycles, so acid doesn't spill.

    I cracked a few in my old Triumph boneshakers many decades ago when they were wet cells. £12 was a lot then.

    .

  9. #59
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    Let's ignore EFB/AGM which appear unsuitable - as well as daftly expensive - for the 13.6/13.8V charging systems.

    Where do you get the "fact" (if it is) that calcium-alloy batteries need 14.4V? From what I can find 13.8V is enough to fully recharge such batteries.

    You're aware that Yuasa say Yuasa automotive batteries are equally suitable for Ford vehicles made before 1997? Those cars output 13.6/13.8V.

    I suspect suitable batteries are such as Varta Black. Probably the cheaper Exide ones. Quite likely the same for Yuasa though their data could be clearer. And so on.

    Being S-Types all these should be vented. (Another thing that EFB/AGM generally are not and that's a clue - their technology is unsuitable.)

    BTW the STR has a different charger as you know and outputs TOO HIGH a voltage for some of the battery types - again they're not SLA vented ones so are not suitable anyway.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Lost it's Avatar
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    When I got my Lucas for the S type the instructions said "Ensure you connect the vent before use". I looked everywhere, turned it upside down, inspected every inch of it.. Guess what?

    I must have been having a senior moment buying something with "Lucas" written on the side.

    Joseph Lucas. Prince of Darkness.

    http://ntnoa.org/LucasSmoke.htm
    2001 3.0 SE Auto, Satnav, winter pack. Dark Blue, all the toys.
    2004 3.0 Sovereign Estate. Winter pack. Fixed. For Sale.
    2005 Estate X type 2.2 Sport.
    2000 V8 3.2 XJ8 LWB. "Prom" car. Lovely. Should sell this one too really...
    2005 "AllyCat", 3.0 XJ6 SE.
    2000 S type 4.0 V8. Latest toy.
    VFR800A and a VFR 800F

    Still beating cancer. Trevor 2, Cancer 0.

    Sure I took the Red pill....

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