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Thread: At rest Voltages. Post start voltages on a 1999 S type 4.0 V8.

  1. #61
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    I decided to test with an actual battery (not in a car).

    Stuck it on charge at 13.6V.

    Eventually the current dropped to 240mA and seemed to stay there.

    Disconnected the charger. Left the battery disconnected for another 12+ hrs.

    Voltage is now 12.8V.

    I think that means it's a Ca/Ca battery and is fully charged, despite Jim's claims that 13.6V can't do that.

    Looks fine to me!

  2. Likes Jimbov8 liked this post
  3. #62
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    Good stuff 04str.

    What is the battery labelled as?

    .

  4. #63
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    Pah - most of label obscured where it was but can now say:
    Type 019
    100Ah 850CCA
    Advanced Energy
    HD Premium
    Silver/Calcium

  5. #64
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    I think your battery has surface charge still.

    I don't believe the surface charge will dissipate without load even though many experts say it will. It didn't on my batteries.

    You can remove it by applying a load such as a spare bulb, or turning on the headlamps, for 3 minutes then measuring. With no load a battery's voltage will rise again, as you can confirm for yourself.

    Do you know it's a calcium/calcium battery, as against a "calcium" battery? Do you know the difference?

    It doesn't matter for the charging voltages, they are the same.


    See this: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...d_acid_battery

    You will see there that lead/acid batteries (that's All car battery types) need 2.30 to 2.45 volts per cell depending on cell type and construction.

    2.30 X 6 cells = 13.8 volts
    2.45 X 6 cells = 14.7 volts

    As I've said, and it's not my invention, old lead/antimony batteries will fully charge at 13.6 volts and 13.8 volts.
    Lead/calcium batteries will only fully charge at 14.4 volts.
    AGM batteries will only fully charge at 14.6 to 14.8 volts.

    See this, do you see any voltage less than 14.4 volts?: https://smartercharger.com/collectio...s/ctek-mxs-5-0

    Also see this, look at the voltage charts: https://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm

    This whole discussion and difference between your opinion and industry and battery chemistry facts has been about lead/calcium versus lead/antimony batteries, right?

    So please find any source of new Type 017 or Type 019 lead/antimony batteries for owners of all 3.0-litre, 4.0-litre and 2.5-litre S Types, which will solve their partial charge problem.


    .

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_S-V6_2004 View Post
    I think your battery has surface charge still.

    I don't believe the surface charge will dissipate without load even though many experts say it will. It didn't on my batteries.

    You can remove it by applying a load such as a spare bulb, or turning on the headlamps, for 3 minutes then measuring. With no load a battery's voltage will rise again, as you can confirm for yourself.
    Jim, I do wonder if this is where some of your differences of opinion stem from. It seems to me that it is accepted universally throughout the battery manufacturing/development industry that there will be a surface charge left immediately after charging a battery, but this will dissipate after a few hours, or can be removed by putting a load on the battery for a few minutes, then removing the load & allowing the battery to recover for a few minutes before measuring the voltage. You have on many occasions advocated measuring the voltage with the load still attached, which will of course give a false low reading. The battery NEEDS that few minutes to recover to give an accurate voltage/state of charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_S-V6_2004 View Post
    So please find any source of new Type 017 or Type 019 lead/antimony batteries for owners of all 3.0-litre, 4.0-litre and 2.5-litre S Types, which will solve their partial charge problem.
    .
    Having been studying the charging system for my 2.5's, I'm not convinced they have a problem charging at higher voltage. According to what I have read, the system sees the target voltage of the battery at 14 to 15 volts, dependant on ambient temperature. Once this has been detected, the PCM reduces the regulated voltage to the minimum 13.6 volts setting, provided all other time & temperature parameters have been met. IE, once the PCM detects the battery is fully charged, it reduces the voltage to prevent over charging.

    Regards, OW
    1999 S Type 3.0L SE, A truly lovely old girl that's served me well. Probably the best car I've had. Now retired.
    02.5MY (X202) S Type 2.5L SE, 58,000 miles, full Jag s/h, all papers, MOT's, receipts etc from new when purchased.
    2006 X type SE 2.2 Diesel. Supposed to be Mrs O's economical commuter car.
    2004 (X202) 2.5L Sport plus, to replace the 3.0L

  7. #66
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orsom weels View Post
    Jim, I do wonder if this is where some of your differences of opinion stem from. It seems to me that it is accepted universally throughout the battery manufacturing/development industry that there will be a surface charge left immediately after charging a battery, but this will dissipate after a few hours, or can be removed by putting a load on the battery for a few minutes, then removing the load & allowing the battery to recover for a few minutes before measuring the voltage. You have on many occasions advocated measuring the voltage with the load still attached, which will of course give a false low reading. The battery NEEDS that few minutes to recover to give an accurate voltage/state of charge.



    Having been studying the charging system for my 2.5's, I'm not convinced they have a problem charging at higher voltage. According to what I have read, the system sees the target voltage of the battery at 14 to 15 volts, dependant on ambient temperature. Once this has been detected, the PCM reduces the regulated voltage to the minimum 13.6 volts setting, provided all other time & temperature parameters have been met. IE, once the PCM detects the battery is fully charged, it reduces the voltage to prevent over charging.

    Regards, OW
    .
    OW where and what are you reading?

    Because this isn't how the L3B charging system in the 2.5-litre and post-2002 3.0-litre S Types works.

    The signal from the ECU is a single high/low signal,
    not pulses.

    It switches the alternator/regulator from 15.3 volts to 13.6 volts. That's all it does. The ambient temperature and coolant temperature sensing in this system is used to determine the time duration of the initial 15.3 volts "initial boost" voltage.

    The battery will not drop much below its actual capacity in a few minutes.

    It's not going to drop from 12.7 volts to 12.4 volts unless it's weak. It should drop from 12.7 volts to 12.6 volts, or stay at 12.7 volts, proving it's fully charged.

    It's up to you how long you apply the load, some experts recommend 5 minutes, others 3, others 2 and others 1 minute. You can find them too. I took the middle.

    Some recommend leaving headlamps on, others off, others wait 5 minutes, others more, others not. I want to see how good the battery is under load. If it wanders down below 12.6 volts in just a few minutes it's weak.

    If it drifts back up from for example 12.3 volts to 12.7 volts in a few minutes before you measure it, you won't see that it's misleading, it's weak because it dropped below 12.6 volts.

    You decide. Test several ways to see what happens.

    Headlamps on draw 2x(55Watts÷12volts)=2x4.5 = about 9 Amps. Call it 10 Amps. So in 1 hour, they will only consume 10 AmpHours from the battery. That is 0.16 AmpHours per minute, from 100 AmpHours capacity

    Do you see now?

    Only AGM batteries will show 12.8 volts when surface charge is removed. This is their fully charged voltage. With surface charge they (AGM) can show up to 13.0 volts.

    You can prove this or disprove it for yourself by measuring the voltage before, the voltage after 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes and 4 minutes with headlamps on, and 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 4 minutes and 5 minutes after turning headlamps etcetera off.

    Do you think I'm spinning stories to entertain you all?

    How many hours does it take to research all this stuff and to double check on my own car, and even now that I don't have it, to dig out sources for you which are buried in absolute rubbish from industry experts who also get it wrong?

    I've done a great amount of checking and research before I started this project.

    I've repeated my findings dozens of times here. I didn't have to do that.

    All anyone has to do to confirm or refute my findings and "claims" is do what I did, precisely as I did it - go out to the car and measure for 45 minutes from cold start. Then compare with what I've written and what the Workshop Manual says for that charging system, which I've also quoted in several places.

    The big bone of contention is people's refusal to understand that there are no new lead/antimony batteries available for cars. It's difficult to believe because many manufacturers do not say that their batteries are lead/calcium or lead/antimony, and when asked, their sales staff do not know the charging voltage themselves. Some say that their batteries will be "fine" but don't specify a charging voltage.

    So please, everyone, make a strong effort and find lead/antimony Type 017 and/or Type 019 batteries, which is the correct size and shape that fits in the S Types.

    It's possible that the Optima Spiral cell AGM batteries might be lead/antimony and might be fully chargeable at 13.6 to 13.8 volts, but I've not been able to confirm this because the manufacturer only says "99% pure lead" for those plates.

    Even some industry "experts" think "lead/acid" means lead/antimony.

    If you don't do what I did, and if you don't carefully read the description in the Workshop Manual then you will not see how your charging systems work, and you will not see whether or not your batteries are fully charged by your car, chaps.

    To determine how my charging system works, I measured the charging system voltage on my 2.5 litre S Type continuously for around 45 minutes.

    It followed exactly the description in the Workshop Manual, as follows:

    From cold start, it showed 15.1 volts for 5 to 6 minutes.

    Then it switched down to 13.6 volts and stayed there.

    There was a small variation of +/- 0.1 volts on both readings.

    I rechecked this several times over several days from cold start to be sure.

    It never varied from this, always the same.

    So anybody can repeat this check on their own car.

    The 1999-2002 3.0-litre and 4.0-litre S Types have different charging systems but can be easily verified in the same way by monitoring the voltage for 45 minutes while idling and while driving to see any changes. It's not rocket science, just time consuming.

    My own battery never charged to more than 12.4 volts in normal use even after a 2 to 3-hour motorway run. It measured 12.2 volts at the battery terminals and 11.8 volts at the cigar lighter socket when it was cold, before first start. The 0.4 volts difference (when the engine is not running) is due to volts drop on the long cables.

    I changed the battery for a new Exide 017TE and after a few days that was down to 12.2 to 12.4 volts too. I fitted that battery to my Merc E320CDi which generated 13.6 to 13.8 volts continually, and after a couple of weeks in normal use, that was down to 12.2 to 12.4 volts too.

    I have confirmed by practical experiment that no calcium battery will charge fully to 12.6 or 12.7 volts in either of these cars. Read some of the Mercedes and BMW and Ford forums and you will see similar discussions of batteries discharging too quickly because they are not fully charged to begin with, especially in winter. Of course some are weak batteries, but not all.

    See the specifications for the C-Tek MXS 5 and you will see as I've repeated, that the voltages it provides are 14.4, 14.7 and 15.8 volts.

    See the specifications for the Yuasa Smart charger which I've posted earlier and you will see? 14.4, 14.7 and 15.8.

    You might suspect as I do, that the Yuasa charger is a C-Tek MXS 5. OK, then find the voltage specs for other smart chargers.

    I have never disputed that 13.6 or 13.8 volts will charge a calcium battery, but it will only charge them partially. Since the requirement to fully charge calcium batteries to 12.7 volts is 14.4 volts, this infers that the potential difference is (14.4-12.7) =1.7 volts.

    Therefore, if the charge voltage is 13.6 volts, the battery should achieve (13.6-1.7) = 11.9 volts and for 13.8 volts it should achieve (13.8-1.7)=12.2 volts.

    Since I got 12.2 volts, this implies the potential difference is (13.6-12.2)= 1.4 volts.

    So if we apply this, to reach 12.7 volts the charging voltage should be at least (12.7+1.4)=14.1 volts. We have seen this figure as a minimum charge voltage in some of the articles I linked. The State of Charge charts confirm the rest, that a calcium battery is only 75-80% charged at 12.4 volts.

    I charged my S Type's Jaguar Varta battery (the original factory one had been replaced with that one) on my home charger and loaded it with one headlamp bulb and left it to discharge. It took about 20 hours to dim and the voltage was down to 12.1 volts. This confirmed its capacity as (55Watts ÷12 volts) = 4.5 Amps X 20 hours = 90 AmpHours. So the battery was in good condition.

    I didn't have a conductance tester to measure CA or CCA.

    I will get one soon, they look "wicked".

    They will also make this type of disagreement unecessary. State of Charge and cranking amps are all there.

    See the last post in this thread in our Stickies for the Workshop Manual reference and descriptions: https://www.jaguarforum.com/showthread.php?t=91876

    Have you monitored your cars closely to see what they do?

    .
    Last edited by Jim_S-V6_2004; 10-01-19 at 18:32.

  8. #67
    Senior Member FastEddie's Avatar
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    Your best chance of a traditional ( classic battery ) would be from Shield batteries , they still build 6v and 12v hard rubber cased batteries.

    The nearest that would suit , assuming you can adopt a taller battery of 214mm rather than 175 or 190 would be a type 243 / 244 ( post layout )

    Both of these are 346mm x 175mm footprint so would fit in the boot tray easily , not sure where they sit in an S-Type ? Battery is 102 A/Hr

    They are transported dry due to the poisons act 1972 , going to be close on £200 , but would meet the requirements of old technology

    The other solution is an inverter charger to charge a second cranking battery at 15v that pulls in with the starter , room permitting.
    2009 X358 XJ LWB 2.7 Tdvi , Liquid Silver , 100k+ and going strong.
    Bumper reflectors drilled and fitted with 3W side marker lights.
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  9. #68
    Senior Member Lost it's Avatar
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    I think you would have real problems venting a battery of that type in a S type, under a car bonnet it isn't a problem, but in a car boot where the air vents are either behind the bumper or the side skirts, the gas being vented being hydrogen would be an interesting proposition to remove, it being lighter than air..

    I did what Jim asked. Everything that I discovered with my S type was confirmed by my conductance tester. My Lucas "Prince of darkness" battery will only charge to 80% of it's rated capacity on the car even after a 160 mile journey.

    When I put the C5 on it and charge it until all 7 led's are lit, the car starts much more readily, the difference can be heard in the way the starter kicks the motor over.

    It's something that was puzzling me, and I did the tests as described. The Conductance tester will tell you the remaining capacity, what kind of CCA it can produce (an American measurement rated at 0 degrees Fahrenheit) and also what state the charge is. It told me mine was at 79% charged, and the CCA available was consistant with this.

    The video's I have linked from "Eric O" at South Main Garage were on similar Ford vessels with similar charging systems, which is why I linked them. The ECU does indeed "pulse" approx every 7 seconds on the US vehicles but you would need a 'scope to see that, volt meters are too slow/damped. The reason I linked them was because he mentions that the US ones are linked to Air Inlet Temperature (AIT) and as the S type system is losely based on the Lincoln LS of the same era (a lot more than some people are prepared to accept actually).

    I put forward the hypothesis that Jaguar didn't bother to alter the charging program for the Jaguar S type when they reprogrammed the ECU to deal with variable inlet phasing camshafts, different gearbox cycles etc. and it is still relying on similar air temperaturs as found in North America and Canada/Alaska before it will signal the alternator to boost the voltage enough to fully charge (and presumably warm) the battery.

    This Eric O guy is based in New York, where they still have much colder average temperatures than we do, which is also why I thought the voltage "pressure" readings he measured were higher than we seem to measure in the UK.

    I still don't know, I was hoping someone could give us a definitive on that, but unless an ECU for the 3.9 litre Lincoln LS comes available and can be decoded and read compared with the S type 4.0 one I don't think we will ever know.
    Last edited by Lost it; 10-01-19 at 22:22.
    2001 3.0 SE Auto, Satnav, winter pack. Dark Blue, all the toys.
    2004 3.0 Sovereign Estate. Winter pack. Fixed. For Sale.
    2005 Estate X type 2.2 Sport.
    2000 V8 3.2 XJ8 LWB. "Prom" car. Lovely. Should sell this one too really...
    2005 "AllyCat", 3.0 XJ6 SE.
    2000 S type 4.0 V8. Latest toy.
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  10. #69
    Senior Member Jim_S-V6_2004's Avatar
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    Thanks Eddie.

    I really don't know, it's not a major problem as long as people who have the affected S Types are aware of it and check their battery if they have funny errors, and charge it periodically.

    It's easy to do that with a conductance tester, as Lost One has.

    And everyone can confirm or refute my findings by doing the same measurements as I have done.

    There are also several videos on YouTube of conversions to capacitor packs who say they are practical. But I hate modifying cars that much.


    Lost One...

    Have you managed to find any info on your car's charging system? Like manufacturer, part number, wiring diagram?

    I'm wondering if it's the same as the one fitted in the early 3.0-litre S Types.

    .
    Last edited by Jim_S-V6_2004; 10-01-19 at 02:55.

  11. #70
    Senior Member Lost it's Avatar
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    Missus only allows me to work on the cars one day a week because of my health, so no. Last weekend was speakers.
    Last edited by Lost it; 10-01-19 at 22:28.
    2001 3.0 SE Auto, Satnav, winter pack. Dark Blue, all the toys.
    2004 3.0 Sovereign Estate. Winter pack. Fixed. For Sale.
    2005 Estate X type 2.2 Sport.
    2000 V8 3.2 XJ8 LWB. "Prom" car. Lovely. Should sell this one too really...
    2005 "AllyCat", 3.0 XJ6 SE.
    2000 S type 4.0 V8. Latest toy.
    VFR800A and a VFR 800F

    Still beating cancer. Trevor 2, Cancer 0.

    Sure I took the Red pill....

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