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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have just read a very interesting article about how green are electric cars compared with a normal car.


It is quite surprising.

We are being warned about the potential black outs in some cities in Germany because of all the people who have bought electric heaters. It is something in the region of one in eight households.

When they all turn them on then the power net will not be able to cope. So how are we supposed to charge electric cars as they will cause the same sort of problems.
 

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This makes interesting watching. Probably says the same as your article. Basically average range EVs need to do around 60000 miles to break even with a petrol cars carbon footprint. Long range EVs probably never will break even. Either way I will be sticking with internal combustion for as long as I possibly can.
 
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Hello Ducmon,

most calculations on this matter, from what I understand, use the average CO2 due to generation, i.e. x amount of CO2 emitted divided by Y amount of electrical units.
This is not an accurate way to asign the CO2 to electric cars and understates how much they are actually responsible for.
Simply put, extra demand on the grid is met by fossil fuel generation as nuclear and renewables have already given all they can. They cannot respond to increased load. Essentially electric cars are gas or coal powered or a mixture of both.
Similary you may have heard or read that night time is the 'greenest' time to use electrcity as the CO2 drops at night with demand. This, too, is false for the same reason.
Electric vehicles and heat pumps are an aggravation and an illogical route given that our grids are more stressed and less reliable than they used to be. But politicians!!
 

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Essentially electric cars are gas or coal powered or a mixture of both.
Next to this, all electric cars need oil.

Oil is needed to produce power for the machines to dig in the earth to get the rare metals for the batteries, transport the materials all across our globe and to fabricate the parts and cars themselves and oil is used to make plastics needed for these cars.

70% of our oil and gas is used for making plastics. If you want to be less depending on oil and gas you need to reduce the plastics fabrication.
 
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Green, pink or blue, I just plain DON'T want one.

I don't buy into this MMGW con. Even if there is a degree of something in it, I don't believe that whatever we do on our small island will make any difference and certainly resent "Green Taxes".

Until someone even TALKS about the REAL issue of OVERPOPULATION..........I'm not interested in the issue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Don't get me wrong.
I am not going to buy an electric car. I am going to keep with petrol models as long as possible.

As classic cars are considered to be a cultural history here in Germany. So there would always be synthetic fuel available. It may cost a lot but we have to wait and see.
 
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Next to this, all electric cars need oil.

Oil is needed to produce power for the machines to dig in the earth to get the rare metals for the batteries, transport the materials all across our globe and to fabricate the parts and cars themselves and oil is used to make plastics needed for these cars.

70% of our oil and gas is used for making plastics. If you want to be less depending on oil and gas you need to reduce the plastics fabrication.
For any with the time / inclination to step back from the doom and gloom of global warming etc. please read this (link below).
During my lifetime, we have introduced a very scary influential material which we still have no idea as to how it and its detritus will affect us, the wild life (flora and fauna) and the future.

 

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As classic cars are considered to be a cultural history here in Germany. So there would always be synthetic fuel available. It may cost a lot but we have to wait and see.
There will be a lot of people that are not able to afford an electric car so they will keep driving a petrol-powered car as long as possible. Synthetic fuel is nothing new. The Nazies developed it before the second world war as a alternative to fossiel fuels. I worked at a factory that already was able to recycle waist plastic into synthetic fuel at a higher quality then fossiel fuel. It's the low quantity that makes it expensive at the moment, but it will be only a matter of time certainly now the prices of fossiel fuel go up and up and the volume of the produced synthetic fuel goes up because it's a very good alternative.

If I'm correct F1 will start using synthetic fuel as of 2026. Followed by other racing classes and i guess it will be also end up at the gas stations soon after that. As a bonus, synthetic fuel can be designed to carry more energy than normal fuels.

For any with the time / inclination to step back from the doom and gloom of global warming etc. please read this (link below).
During my lifetime, we have introduced a very scary influential material which we still have no idea as to how it and its detritus will affect us, the wild life (flora and fauna) and the future.
Its already known for many years that we a poison us selves thanks to companies that are more concert about profit then the environment or people. Micro plastic and chemical pollution are becoming a real problem now.
 

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  • Possible increased particulate matter emissions from tires compared to fossil-fueled cars. ...
  • Pollution emitted in manufacturing, especially the increased amounts from producing batteries.
Not to mention exploitation of children used to mine the elements needed for batteries
 

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Having written a long post on this issue over a year ago I should remind all that recycling of EV batteries for just those EV's made in 2019, exceeded recycling capabilities of the time and even in 2022 those same 2019 EV batteries still exceed today's recycling capabilities by a very long way. Now couple the batteries from EV's, mobile phones, laptops etc since then, and you begin to see the size of the real problem. Yes, EV batteries, used properly can last up to 10 years but the problem of recycling already exists because only a small % of a Lithium-Ion type of battery is recyclable compared to the much higher recyclability of a lead acid battery for instance. Recycling of EV batteries is time consuming, dirty and the mining of the materials used to make them is subject to ecological damage and modern slavery claims.
If we add the problems that others here have already quoted, such as the inability of our grid sytems capabilities and the overloading of our power stations to provide for the charging needs of a continent full of EV's, the whole idea becomes ridiculous. The truth is we have gone down the wrong route. Hydrogen is, and always was, the answer, and I do not mean using it to produce electricity in a hydrogen cell to power electric motors, but to burn it in existing internal combustion engines. Yes, it has about half the power compared to fossil fuels but as it's only waste products are water and some heat, just make engines bigger and more hydrogen efficient!
There is a great deal of experimentation going on in the US and Europe on this very idea and work is being done on three major goals. 1. Producing hydrogen on-board as required by the engine. 2. producing it safely from sea water without producing killer Chlorine gas alongside the hydrogen, which results from using electrolysis of sea water, rather than pure water producing Oygen. 3. Storage of hydrogen as a solid.
We are a lot closer than many think and if we threw the sort of money we threw at Covid, I believe it may be possible to reach those goals within the next 10 years. After all, we can cover oceans both above and below our oceans, travel around the world in sealed pressurised luxury in the sky, reach planets in the cosmos and produce smart weapons of mass destruction.
One thing I am convinced of though, is that if we continue down our present route, owners of EV's will become pariahs in the eyes of future generations forced to live on a planet where man took pollution out of the air by turning the surface of the planet into a wasteland of toxic battery landfills.
Still, politics rules and it's always about the money and they might find it hard to tax sea water! So while I have to have disgusting images plastered over my belongings (cigarette packets that I have bought and own) politcal leaders, including those of the EU, are free to run around in huge engined vehicles without sporting images and slogans such as "This vehicle can seriously damage your health and lead to global warming"
How Does EV Battery Recycling Work? (makeuseof.com)
 

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No modern slavery claims for lithium mining in Cornwall Ray..
 
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No modern slavery claims for lithium mining in Cornwall Ray
Not yet................It's only a matter of time before they send cheap east European people into the mine followed by people that need to do this for there wellfair. Everything to keep the cost down.
 

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Not yet................It's only a matter of time before they send cheap east European people into the mine followed by people that need to do this for there wellfair. Everything to keep the cost down.
Is their lithium in Cornwall?
 

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Hello Ray,

I have severe misgivings about a widesprad use of hydrogen, particularly for personal transport. It really is a most dangerous gas and is very difficult to produce efficiently.
Incidentally the positive claim that it's only by product from combustion is water. I don't think it is widley known but H2O is the most prolific and most powerful greenhouse gas and we are trying to eliminate what is, in reality, a minor one in CO2.

Alec
 

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I need to find the link to a report that was released a few years ago which gave evidence that wind farms actually increase CO2 output by increasing soil temperatures, and cause localised climate change by forcing moisture in the air to condense.

As with all things the problem is consumption, if we stopped building cars now and everyone had to keep what they had the environment would be in a much better place than if we forced everyone to buy a newly built electric car.
 

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Until someone even TALKS about the REAL issue of OVERPOPULATION..........I'm not interested in the issue.
That was certainly the view 50 years ago but things have moved on. Now the general view is that world population will peak at 10.9bn in 2100 and then decline.
So population, whilst an issue, isn't THE issue.
Co2 IS causing global warming. You really have to go into flat earther territory to consider it 'fake news'. Sure there are other factors, nobody ever said there wasn't, but come what may, the idea that we can continue burning fossil fuels for the next 500 years is just plain crazy - so the idea that we need to change, and the sooner the better, is entirely sensible. Nobody is suggesting they take away our petrol and diesel cars (correlate with the US "they're taking away our guns" stupidity), but new ones will be electric. Hence the development might of the worldwide automotive industry will switch to making electric cars more and more efficient with better range. Think how far they came with diesels in only 20 years and extrapolate that!

As for the Co2 and electric cars argument, most people seem to miss the point entirely.
Too many people look at how things are today and extrapolate.
It's the same thinking that would have said only a few years ago, electric cars can only do 30 miles and then the lead acid batteries are depleted and need 12 hours recharging. Good for milkfloats but that's about it. So there's no point even considering it. Say that today and someone will show you a tesla.
When I was a kid, most cars did 20mpg, spewed out lead and you were pretty much guaranteed to die in a crash over 20mph. Then they brought out increasingly stringent 'impossible' regulations, people complained, said it would be the end of the automotive industry, but they rose to the challenge, as they always do when face with impossible challenges. It's a well proven strategy. So yes, today, battery production is a Co2 nightmare, but that's why scientists are spending billions on new concepts. in 20 years, current battery technology will be seen in the same light as cathode ray tubes today. Whatever makes it to the fore won't have the same carbon footprint.

Power generation, plastics usage etc are all going through the same massive shift in R&D and new concepts and ideas come along almost daily. From using recycled fibres in place of plastics, to Fusion generation, tidal, wave, and vastly improved solar. More and more 'impossibles' and becoming normal everyday.
So don't base your thinking on what's possible today.
Instead, accept what they're doing as laying down a challenge to industry and let's look forward to the rewards. There may be a little pain along the way, but I'm pretty confident it'll be worth it.
For me, I'm considering a PHEV for my next step. Not ready for full electric yet, but was out in a model 3 the other day and the idea isn't entirely without merit.
 
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