[piman]

Hello Ruby,

while there are many factors that caused this collapse, one quoted was the cost of energy. It is ironic that the very aim of decarbonising our electricity system is the cause of the high price of it, This makes manufacturing in the U.K. unattractive for large concens. Car manufacturoing is going abroad and hence the market for batteries.
I'm sorry toi be playing this old record but it is the reality that we are exporting our CO2 emissions abroad to the detriment of the U.K.and it's industry.

alec

 

[t0m4ever]

Sort of related, buy who are "EY"? When my Dad worked there they were called "Ernst & Young". "EY" is a noise someone makes when they are poked with a stick.

 

[Ruby351]

Hello Ruby,

while there are many factors that caused this collapse, one quoted was the cost of energy. It is ironic that the very aim of decarbonising our electricity system is the cause of the high price of it, This makes manufacturing in the U.K. unattractive for large concens. Car manufacturoing is going abroad and hence the market for batteries.
I'm sorry toi be playing this old record but it is the reality that we are exporting our CO2 emissions abroad to the detriment of the U.K.and it's industry.

alec

Hello piman,

Reading the article again, one problem was Britishvolt struggled to make a profit and ran out of money, a number of options were on laid on the table to keep the company afloat, but these apparently were over looked and eventually lead to the resulting closure.

We have one Chinese owned battery manufacturing plant in the UK where as in Europe there are or will be 35 and it has been said that the UK will need several to sustain the expected future EV production over the next 10 years as ICE cars phased out.

Support from the government was on hand to the tune of £100 million, but Britishvolt failed to meet their part of the bargain re construction targets, so this never materialised.
From the article it seems to me there is a lot more going on that needs to be sorted out in order to make the production of EV batteries a viable situation. A coming together of a suitable site (which they appear to have), business strategy this I think is where something like EY Parthenon is supposed to work, significant investment obviously but the missing link seems to be getting the established manufacturer on board.

Gina

 

[Ruby351]

Sort of related, buy who are "EY"? When my Dad worked there they were called "Ernst & Young". "EY" is a noise someone makes when they are poked with a stick.

According to Wiki your dad is right :

Ernst & Young - Wikipedia

"Ernst & Young Global Limited, trade name EY, is a multinational professional services partnership headquartered in London, England"


Looking at another article on the same subject it the EY is apparently 'EY Parthenon' i.e. the article states: " EY Parthenon’s turnaround and restructuring strategy team were appointed today ":

EY administrators called in to Britishvolt as funding runs out | The Northern Echo

I found what I think is the website of EY Parthenon, and I hope I have the right company here, they seem to be mighty big and not just administrators but focus heavily as strategists, helping companies ford a successful path into the future.

If they were helping Britishvolt they don't appear to have been very successful, I say this a bit tongue-in-cheek as with all things like this, there is much more than meets the eye and I suspect that Britishvolt may not have taken on board some/all of the suggestions made.

About EY-Parthenon | EY - Global

"EY-Parthenon teams believe every successful business strategy is underpinned by an in-depth understanding of industry dynamics and the competitive landscape in which it sits."

 

[ducmon]

Looking at the mess that EY made of the wire card audit. It may have been more useful to use a different firm to try and rescue British volt.

EY and Wirecard: anatomy of a flawed audit

First-hand testimony paints a picture of missed opportunities to uncover the fraud and a failure to understand a company EY audited for a decade

www.ft.com

The local battery factory which will be fun by Tesla is now being held up because of the lack of water. The latest trick against was to hand over all the water rights from the local council to to a private company (Tesla). This means that the court cases against the use of water for the battery production.

The Tesla factory was built in a water protected area for human consumption. So it is turning into a bit of a problem here.

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/03/1131695382/tesla-ev-electric-vehicles-europe-germany-drought-climate-change-factory

 

[Ruby351]

Looking at the mess that EY made of the wire card audit. It may have been more useful to use a different firm to try and rescue British volt.

EY and Wirecard: anatomy of a flawed audit

First-hand testimony paints a picture of missed opportunities to uncover the fraud and a failure to understand a company EY audited for a decade

www.ft.com

The local battery factory which will be fun by Tesla is now being held up because of the lack of water. The latest trick against was to hand over all the water rights from the local council to to a private company (Tesla). This means that the court cases against the use of water for the battery production.

The Tesla factory was built in a water protected area for human consumption. So it is turning into a bit of a problem here.

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/03/1131695382/tesla-ev-electric-vehicles-europe-germany-drought-climate-change-factory

I managed to wade a good deal through the first article, farcical and even after having a so called "extensive 'integrity review'" carried out by an outside law firm working with its own company auditors who had not been associated with the Wirecard account, having reviewed thousands of documents and quizzed those staff responsible, they came to the conclusion, the problem was not systemic. Even so, they are prepared to spend $500m on new audit technology, employ 20K staff and include more anti-fraud training, but the biggest thing they have learnt, seems to be that they need to choose their clients more carefully.

This Wirecard mess however, doesn't seem to have had much of an overall impact on their business all things considered, yes they have lost some clients, but many have remained loyal and they have even gained some ... crazy eh?

I can't see these little beauties getting in the way of the great and powerful Mr Musk. A water shortage in the area did the farmers, conservationists and activists cry? Hah, as far as problems go for Elon and his Gigafactory Berlin-Brandenburg, this is just a drop in the ocean for him, as he well knows money talks, proven in my mind by the way he has blatantly started the process of ripping out trees in anticipation of the all clear from the 'regulators' for the additional build-out of the existing factory - for me his arrogance is palpable, dumbfounding and nauseating.

 

[piman]

Hello all,

further to the Britishvolt collapse, last Tuesday the Department of Business Enterprise and Industrial Strategy have called for a review of the business case for it. It's pity that they hadn't done that prior to spending Government, i.e taxpayers money before getting involved in the enterprise. (Parliamentary Inquiry – UK Green Jobs Narrative Unravelling | Watts Up With That?)
As anyone with any experience of a small business seeking funds from their bank to start or expand a business must produce a credible business plan before a loan will even be considered, and that is usually a secured loan anyway.
The government is pushing 'green business', a bit of a fairy tale in my cynical mind, and I wonder how much this publicity of such a large enterprise had on the decison to proceed. I seem to remember that Mr. B. Johnson was involved?

Alec

 

[Frank]

Hello all,

further to the Britishvolt collapse, last Tuesday the Department of Business Enterprise and Industrial Strategy have called for a review of the business case for it. It's pity that they hadn't done that prior to spending Government, i.e taxpayers money before getting involved in the enterprise. (Parliamentary Inquiry – UK Green Jobs Narrative Unravelling | Watts Up With That?)
As anyone with any experience of a small business seeking funds from their bank to start or expand a business must produce a credible business plan before a loan will even be considered, and that is usually a secured loan anyway.
The government is pushing 'green business', a bit of a fairy tale in my cynical mind, and I wonder how much this publicity of such a large enterprise had on the decison to proceed. I seem to remember that Mr. B. Johnson was involved?

Alec

Since when did sound business and economics get in the way of popular politics?

 

[Ruby351]

Hello all,

further to the Britishvolt collapse, last Tuesday the Department of Business Enterprise and Industrial Strategy have called for a review of the business case for it. It's pity that they hadn't done that prior to spending Government, i.e taxpayers money before getting involved in the enterprise. (Parliamentary Inquiry – UK Green Jobs Narrative Unravelling | Watts Up With That?)
As anyone with any experience of a small business seeking funds from their bank to start or expand a business must produce a credible business plan before a loan will even be considered, and that is usually a secured loan anyway.
The government is pushing 'green business', a bit of a fairy tale in my cynical mind, and I wonder how much this publicity of such a large enterprise had on the decison to proceed. I seem to remember that Mr. B. Johnson was involved?

Alec

I didn't think the government had put any money into Britishvolt, unless I have missed something?

I understood they had made it available, like I said in a previous post, but as as Britishvolt hadn't met their manufacturing targets, the government wouldn't pay out the sum they asked for as an advance of the total support on offer, i.e. as stated in the article, "Last year, Britishvolt asked the government to advance £30m of a promised £100m in support, but was refused as the company had not hit agreed construction milestones to access the funds."

Britishvolt: UK battery start-up collapses into administration - BBC News

 

[ducmon]

Here are the production figures for the batteries used in cars.
You will see that the majority are produced in China and the European production is not that high.

This does not bode good for the production of cars in Europe.

Visualizing China’s Dominance in Battery Manufacturing (2022-2027P)
Visualizing China’s Dominance in Battery Manufacturing (2022-2027P)

The German production figures are predictions based on guess work as there are plans for new factories but the majority including Tesla's do not have planning permission.

 

[Frank]

Interesting approach, may appeal to you derv drivers out there...
The race to make diesel engines run on hydrogen - BBC News

 

[j777stp]

Interesting approach, may appeal to you derv drivers out there...
The race to make diesel engines run on hydrogen - BBC News

Interesting approach, may appeal to you derv drivers out there...
The race to make diesel engines run on hydrogen - BBC News

you have to ask why this technology hasn't been pursued far more aggressively than it has. No doubt its down to an aspect of finance. It just seems a no brainer

 

[piman]

Hello Frank,

the cost of hydrogen production, storage and transport. They want to use renewable electrcity to produce it but that is very inefficient, maybe about 40%.
That aside hydrogen needs special care in it's handling. It is one of the most explosive of fuels and tends to seep through containers and pipelines so that is an added challenge to overcome. Certainly it is used in industry so they know the answers but it must add cost.

Alec

 

[Frank]

Hello Frank,

the cost of hydrogen production, storage and transport. They want to use renewable electrcity to produce it but that is very inefficient, maybe about 40%.
That aside hydrogen needs special care in it's handling. It is one of the most explosive of fuels and tends to seep through containers and pipelines so that is an added challenge to overcome. Certainly it is used in industry so they know the answers but it must add cost.

Alec

Hi Alec,

True, but the cost of mining raw battery materials and battery manufacture, shipping, etc. is not particularly efficient and then the running electricity still has to be generated. If were feasible to have relatively local hydrogen generation plants near renewable energy sources then this could work, even if only 40% efficient. It would help with storage problems for renewables as excess can be used immediately to generate hydrogen rather than have a large battery storage capacity.

 

[chrisjp]

Storage of hydrogen is not that easy - it can't be liquefied at any temperature easily obtainable so must be very highly compressed to be able to store a reasonable amount of energy in a reasonable amount of space. 15,000psi is what is normally used and I, for one, wouldn't really want to see storage tanks at this pressure scattered around the countryside for anybody to mess about with. The same pressure also of course must be used to store a reasonable range worth's of it on a hydrogen powered vehicle, and these tanks would have to be very tough to withstand an accident. Because hydrogen is one of the smallest molecules it also leaks through very small gaps in joints which are leak tight for other gases and liquids and, worse, unlike liquids you can't readily see a leak. So the hydrogen feed pipes to the engine would need to be very carefully engineered and probably not suitable for DIY repairs.
None of this makes hydrogen power for vehicles impossible, but none of it will be easy or just be a straight replacement for diesel or petrol.

 

[t0m4ever]

JCB have working engines running on hydrogen now. I'd assume it is easier to over engineer things like fuel lines and fuel tanks in a giant digger than a car.

 

[piman]

Hello Frank,

yes that's true but as hydrogen is envisaged for so many roles from cement making to these heavy plant the article mentions requires a lot of hydrogen. Renewables are variable and I cannot see a large and expensive (Because of all the problems in extracting and storing the gas) hydrogen production plant can run economically with variable power. Such plants tend to be 24 hour 365 days operation so waiting for the wind to pick up or the sun shine to me makes it a non starter.
The Japanese, I read, are reseaching producing hydrogen from sea water using nuclear as a power source. Quite how far they have got or what prospect there is of a succesful and economic conversion I haven't heard.
At the end of the day industry needs cheap and reliable energy, which the U.K. no longer has nor has it much of it's industry for that reason and more is shutting or moving abroad.

Alec

 

[piman]

Hello Tom,

yes, JCB are being pro active seeing the writing on the wall for diesel, batteries are not practical so this is about all that's left?
Manufcaturing hydrogen is not their field and they leave that to others to try and sort out?

Alec

 

[Ruby351]

Interesting approach, may appeal to you derv drivers out there...
The race to make diesel engines run on hydrogen - BBC News

That made interesting reading, and they admit to still very much being in it's infancy stages asking the question as to whether is can become a commercial enterprise i.e. being effective "outside the university?".

I understand that there engine ran on 90% hydrogen so presumably that left 10% diesel making up the remainder, but I was a bit perturbed reading on as the two being introduced together had to be finely tuned to occur at the right time in the mix, otherwise there was the district possibility of creating "something that is explosive that will burn out the whole system,".. Not only that, but there is also the risk of harmful nitrogen oxide emissions, should the mixture of hydrogen and air in the engine cylinder not be controlled effectively.

I did have to smile to myself, when I saw that it's the work Prof Kook, maybe just my kooky sense of humour

 

[John Wilko]

it seems BMW was doing this hydrogen stuff 23 years ago