EV's could be Banned

1876 Views 67 Replies 14 Participants Last post by piman, 9 d ago

Trooper

Discussion Starter · 6 mo ago

If Switzerland has Power Cuts during the Winter month's they are going to Ban Electric Vehicles so much for them being Eco friendly.

Reactions: 5

41 - 60 of 68 Posts

chrisjp

· #41 · 11 d ago

An interesting video and he talks a lot of sense.
I would comment though that, whatever the merits of EVs (and there are clearly quite a few), their take up in the UK will not make any difference to climate change. In fact, even if the UK shut down entirely and we all perished, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to climate change because the UK contributes less than 1% of world carbon dioxide emissions.
So wanting to feel "climate virtuous" is NOT a good reason for buying an EV.

Reactions: 1

Frank

· #42 · 11 d ago

chrisjp said:
An interesting video and he talks a lot of sense.
I would comment though that, whatever the merits of EVs (and there are clearly quite a few), their take up in the UK will not make any difference to climate change. In fact, even if the UK shut down entirely and we all perished, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to climate change because the UK contributes less than 1% of world carbon dioxide emissions.
So wanting to feel "climate virtuous" is NOT a good reason for buying an EV.

I would disagree about making no difference because as a major importer we indirectly contribute a lot more to the World's pollution than just what is directly emitted in the UK.
Then there is the issue of trying to get the larger, often poorer, contributing countries to take action if we are seen to apparently be doing nothing ourselves. It would sound like a case of "Do as I say, not what I do".

Regardless of what we think about EVs and I agree the cradle to grave benefits to the climate over ICE vehicles are dubious, the fact is there is a move to EVs by all the main manufactures driven by laws whether we like it or not. My only interest in possibly going EV is that maybe now is an opportune time to get a currently inflated price for my ICE. My crystal ball into the future is a little hazy right now though.

chrisjp

· #43 · 11 d ago

Frank said:
Then there is the issue of trying to get the larger, often poorer, contributing countries to take action if we are seen to apparently be doing nothing ourselves. It would sound like a case of "Do as I say, not what I do".

I take your point but I really don't think that ANYTHING the UK does will in any way influence what countries like China and India (the main CO2 emitters in the world) will do.
Of course we should seek to reduce our CO2 emissions over time, but our setting of a legally binding net zero emissions by 2050 was the stupidist bit of legislation ever enacted by a UK government IMHO

j777stp

· #44 · 11 d ago

I liken new EV drivers to the former Smokers now wanting Smoking banned. The Arab states are now setting us up for higher fuel costs stating the reduction in demand will reduce investment meaning higher pump prices . Not only is the ordinary motorist apparently subsidising middle class EV owners but they as a consequence will have to pay more for their fuel in the long run. take away the subsides and the free road tax and lets see how the market develops from there. When my local Postman or Binman starts driving one then they will have become affordable to the people who should have them.

mac_doctor

· #45 · 11 d ago

j777stp said:
When my local Postman or Binman starts driving one then they will have become affordable to the people who should have them.

The milkman has been driving them for decades!

Reactions: 2

Ian D

· #46 · 11 d ago

j777stp said:
I liken new EV drivers to the former Smokers now wanting Smoking banned. The Arab states are now setting us up for higher fuel costs stating the reduction in demand will reduce investment meaning higher pump prices . Not only is the ordinary motorist apparently subsidising middle class EV owners but they as a consequence will have to pay more for their fuel in the long run. take away the subsides and the free road tax and lets see how the market develops from there. When my local Postman or Binman starts driving one then they will have become affordable to the people who should have them.

There no longer any subsidies, they were removed a while ago. The free VED lasts until 2025 and I’ll be paying about £165 at current prices after that, still cheaper than my XF was.

Pushing up home electricity prices won’t do it either as people have solar and can literally charge their car for free.

Shell recorded £33bn profit in 2022. That could pay for the energy bills of HALF of all UK households. Instead? Shell paid just £15m in tax to the UK. That's just 22p per person! But let’s defend the oil producers…

The Government has committed to a subsidy of up to £5.7bn in tax relief for investment in oil and gas in the next three years. Subsiding oil and gas is ok though right?

Reactions: 3

piman

· #47 · 11 d ago

Hello IanD,

if you think that solar will charge an ev you are optimistic to put it mildly. The amount of power required for an ev will certainly be far more than the allowed solar panels size will provide.

There wil be a large cost in upgrading the local area network paid by all just for the extra demand that evs and heat pumps will require.

Tax relief is normal for business. The oil and gas sector pay a lot more in taxes than most other types of business.. It's a common fallacy that oil and gas is subsidised, even though we cannot live without it.

Frank

· #48 · 11 d ago

piman said:
It's a common fallacy that oil and gas is subsidised, even though we cannot live without it.

We will have to live without it when it runs out! Maybe not within my remaining lifetime, but it will happen at some point and a replacement will be required.

piman said:
There wil be a large cost in upgrading the local area network paid by all just for the extra demand that evs and heat pumps will require.

I read a report, although pertaining to the USA, that the additional electricity supply required would not be an issue as current usage is much less than 10 to 20 years ago, presumably due to more efficient appliances, light bulbs, etc.

Ian D

· #49 · 11 d ago

piman said:
Hello IanD,

if you think that solar will charge an ev you are optimistic to put it mildly. The amount of power required for an ev will certainly be far more than the allowed solar panels size will provide.

There wil be a large cost in upgrading the local area network paid by all just for the extra demand that evs and heat pumps will require.

Tax relief is normal for business. The oil and gas sector pay a lot more in taxes than most other types of business.. It's a common fallacy that oil and gas is subsidised, even though we cannot live without it.

Not optimistic at all with solar, I know a couple that do it. Using a 10kWh battery and trickle charge excess to the EV using a Zappi.

Shell just recorded its profits in 2022 paying only £15m in tax. In 2021, Shell paid £8.7 million in tax but was handed back £107 million from HMRC and so was left with a negative bill in the UK of around £98 million. But yeah they pay a lot more in taxes right?

Through a tax break, oil and gas companies can reclaim 91p of every £1 of tax due on oil and gas profits if it is reinvested in more UK North Sea projects.

piman

· #50 · 11 d ago

Hello Frank,

America is quite different to the U.K., they have air conditioning running for alot of the time so their netwoks will be sized accordingly.. Our local area (low voltage) network is not built for the fairly high demand for long periods that charging evs and running heat pumps require.
Yes there is a finite amount of fossil fuels in the earth and we will need to find something else to replace them.
I'm sure there are those who are looking at that at the moment but our pursuit of renewables will not be the answer.

Alec

piman

· #51 · 11 d ago

Hello Ian,

I was talking generally, consider the capacity of an average ev and the size of the panels (which the electricity supplier limits) and the U.K. levels of sunshine, running an ev for free just can't work. I can't believe they charge a battery to chage an ev?

I don't know your source of the figures for oil and gas taxes (Shell is but one company, and has many sources of income rather than just oil extraction), but the renewables industry gets more subsidies and does far less for us.

The government gives out mixed messages it seems, encouraging oil exploration (sometimes) on the one hand then putting windfall taxes on the other discouraging exploration. Exploration is an essentuial characteristic of the oil business as new fields are always required to replace older fields as their output falls of. When exploration is curtailed by government policy, prices naturally go up as supply is squeezed.
The realities seem to escape our government and this reflects on our prosperity and our rate of inflation.

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j777stp

· #52 · 11 d ago

Frank said:
We will have to live without it when it runs out! Maybe not within my remaining lifetime, but it will happen at some point and a replacement will be required.

I read a report, although pertaining to the USA, that the additional electricity supply required would not be an issue as current usage is much less than 10 to 20 years ago, presumably due to more efficient appliances, light bulbs, etc.

the report I read showed by 2035 they would need twice the capacity they have now this from the Sec for Energy. not everyone can afford current prices or Solar panels many people liv e in rented accommodation and exist on minimum wage if we ignore the needs of these people we are storing up a whole lot of trouble for the future.

j777stp

· #53 · 11 d ago

Ian D said:
There no longer any subsidies, they were removed a while ago. The free VED lasts until 2025 and I’ll be paying about £165 at current prices after that, still cheaper than my XF was.

Pushing up home electricity prices won’t do it either as people have solar and can literally charge their car for free.

Shell recorded £33bn profit in 2022. That could pay for the energy bills of HALF of all UK households. Instead? Shell paid just £15m in tax to the UK. That's just 22p per person! But let’s defend the oil producers…

The Government has committed to a subsidy of up to £5.7bn in tax relief for investment in oil and gas in the next three years. Subsiding oil and gas is ok though right?

what about the £4 billion plus in windfall tax you seem to pick and choose your facts and yes as the vast majority need to use oil and gas its important to keep the supply secure. how many people have Solar or wind power available ? while you are paying nothing until 2025 I will have paid nearly £2000 in Road Tax.

Ian D

· #54 · 11 d ago

j777stp said:
what about the £4 billion plus in windfall tax you seem to pick and choose your facts and yes as the vast majority need to use oil and gas its important to keep the supply secure. how many people have Solar or wind power available ? while you are paying nothing until 2025 I will have paid nearly £2000 in Road Tax.

Not everyone needs to run a 5.0L v8, your choice and it’s not as if it was a surprise on that. I also paid that on my XK I owned for 4 years. You do know that ICE cars before 2017 under 99g also pay zero VED too and that’s never changing either.
£4billion in windfall tax, they’re getting more back in subsidies. Great as a headline figure, but doesn’t do any thing if they get back up to 91p per £1 they pay in tax is it? With how much profit they generate each year, they shouldn’t need subsidies to setup more areas for oil and gas.

In the meantime we get lovely events like this.

inews.co.uk

Company behind Poole oil leak has a long record of leaks and pollution incidents

Since 2013, Perenco's Wytch Farm plant has had leaks involving crude oil and hydrochloric acid, and exceeded carbon monoxide limits by three times

inews.co.uk

piman

· #55 · 11 d ago

Hello Ian,

the oil and gas sector is not as profitable as you seem to imagine. It is very much a roller coaster of market prices and the investment need for the future, much of it at great risk.

That sector is constantly portayed as villains by the media and the green blob yet it is a vital sector, in the literal meaning of teh word.

Alec

Ian D

· #56 · 10 d ago

Oh really, not as profitable?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/02/bp-profits-energy-windfall-tax-oil-gas

No one is questioning that it’s not vital, but when prices have gone up so much and yet they’re making more than ever and getting subsidies as well, it’s a bit obscene don’t you think and a poke In the eye during a cost of living crisis and high inflation.

piman

· #57 · 10 d ago

Hello Ian,

the price of oil is a market price and when it goes down as it frequently does, profits drop. It is illuminating that the profit figure is quoted but not the turnover as that would put some perspective to it. Of course they do well when prices surge, but some of that is due to government actions (globally). Squeeze supply and prices increase sharply, it doesn't need much of a shortfall, real or imagined by traders to affect the price.

I have no interest ori nvestment in the oil sector but think that they get a lot of stick which is not really warranted.

Alec

j777stp

· #58 · 9 d ago

I was fully aware of my VED cost but I dont think I should subsidise much heavier cars that will do far more damage than I do with my 3k miles or less. Any report published is done so for a reason and paid for by sectors trying to prove their point they all have an axe to grind and expecting a balanced report on the oil Industry from the Guardian is a bit of a stretch. what is also forgotten and ignored by the same people who think EV's are the answer is that crude oil goes into 6000 daily products and as the use of Petrol and Diesel declines costs will go up. For some reason EV owners and the EV manufacturers do not seem to want people asking too many questions.

j777stp

· #59 · 9 d ago

here is a different view or a more theological input.
The Environmental Delusion: Electric Vehicles are not Eco-Friendly – By Faith, Christian Inspiration, ByFaith Media

Ian D

· #60 · 9 d ago

j777stp said:
here is a different view or a more theological input.
The Environmental Delusion: Electric Vehicles are not Eco-Friendly – By Faith, Christian Inspiration, ByFaith Media

Some of those opinions and points have already progressed or changed already, I didn’t expect to be reading extracts of the bible either… Look at the Volkswagen plant that produces the latest ID range, it’s the most eco car manufacturing plant currently online.

www.volkswagenag.com

How Volkswagen is becoming a climate-neutral company

“The climate crisis is the greatest challenge of our time,” says Herbert Diess, CEO of the Volkswagen Group. This dossier explains the efforts the company is undertaking to protect the climate. ...

www.volkswagenag.com

New battery tech is becoming available and are cobalt free, have a look at LFP.

I still pay income tax/NI as I work full time and probably will do so for another 20-25 years, so we’re all subsiding one thing or another in this country.
I’m looking forward to the electric bills coming down further in July, I wonder if I get down to about £5 for a full charge

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