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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It was our good friend Frank down in Malvern who got me thinking about this topic , he was saying over on another
thread about how he likes to hear others opinions and views , even if he doesn't share them he feels he benefits from
hearing them .
I suppose this is what we mean by Tolerance and indeed the Englishman in particular is famed for his Tolerance , as
a Scotsman with Anglo Parentage I was never really aware of this until I grew much older , I wouldn't have said for
instance that Glasgow was particularly tolerant when I was younger , there was a religious divide and it largely ended
there . I was thinking about this just the other day when I was reading about Sturgeon welcoming Immigrants and speaking
of Pardons for convicted Homosexuals , things have clearly changed up there , is it indicative of the People of Scotlands
wishes or just another Headline Grabbing Initiative by the SNP ? I really don't know .
But where does this Tolerance in the Englishman come from and why is it there ? Is it simply that the Englishman is on
some kind of " Guilt Trip " over the deeds of the British Empire ? Personally I find that hard to believe .
Is it as I suspect , that the Englishman is not Tolerant at all ? he is simply continually bombarded by Politicians and the Media
telling him what he should and shouldn't believe , what is Politically Correct and what isn't , that he simply throws up his hands
and says " do what you like . "
What is clear is that this Tolerance is a dangerous thing and I think its largely responsible for the mess we are in Today .
Its my opinion that many have exploited this Tolerance and mistaken it for Softness and indeed Ignorance , we only have
to look at the attitude of some of the Ethnic Minorities towards us to understand this , it can largely be a Culture of Entitlement
rather than one of Contribution and Integration and this Cancer has spread to our own Indigenous Population .
I find myself wanting to adopt more of the French Belligerence in these matters , perhaps burn a few sheep in the street ,
Animal ones that is :-D
 

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Brits walk away from confrontations after a brief try to put across their view red.

Foreigners and marginals (ykw - you know who) usually persist and if they get a tiny concession they demand more and with more support from those who start off to be seen as "tolerant" then become more aggressive and less and less tolerant of any resistance, beyond reason.

Helped and egged on by our media.

When the majority give up resisting, especially when bombarded with "racist", "homophobe", "mysogynist', the Brit minorities get more and more and the result is what we have today, every marginal gets their way and our "Normal families'" values are eroded.

Thankfully Italians and Griks integrated long ago, properly.

Good food in our times, now rare cos their kids are much better educated and not interested in the family businesses.

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Do you think Jim , that the BREXIT VOTE marked any sort of turnaround in the attitudes of the British People ?
Perhaps that as soon as we as a Nation are given any meaningful say , then the real view of the British People
becomes apparent and its vastly different to the perceived wisdom foisted on us by the Media and that old bloke
in Devons mates :-D

Come on David back into the fray , " Your Forum needs you " to paraphrase Kitchener
 
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I really don't want to go over all this stuff again - entrenched views will remain entrenched.

May I just point out that the French repealed all sodomy legislation in 1791 but we insisted on chemically castrating and driving to suicide the man who probably did more to win the 2nd world war for the allies than anyone else. It took the UK until 1967 to get to roughly the same place !!
Same s e x marriage has been legal in France since 2013 and discrimination on the grounds of gender identity and s e x u a l orientation has been illegal since 1985.

France has been welcoming immigrants from former colonies (particularly North Africa) since the 1950s and has similar problems to the UK and other countries in terms of integration, and tolerance / intolerance.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité, are incorporated into both the 1946 and the 1958 French constitutions and are, to a large extent, still maintained to the present day.

France is a much more liberal country than the UK in many ways - it does, however, still have a tradition of "worker militancy" which has absolutely nothing to do with any of the views expressed in the two posts above this one.

Could it just be that there are people in many countries who refuse to accept that the world is changing in a way that they don't like, and that it has NOTHING to do with England, or France, or Scotland or Australia.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
" I really don't want to go over all this stuff again " ? Theres over five paragraphs there , wait till I get some
Tea and a biscuit on the go David , I stayed in the house last night so I am running a bit late and I want to
take my time with your welcome Post
 

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I really don't want to go over all this stuff again - entrenched views will remain entrenched.

May I just point out that the French repealed all sodomy legislation in 1791 but we insisted on chemically castrating and driving to suicide the man who probably did more to win the 2nd world war for the allies than anyone else. It took the UK until 1967 to get to roughly the same place !!
Same s e x marriage has been legal in France since 2013 and discrimination on the grounds of gender identity and s e x u a l orientation has been illegal since 1985.

France has been welcoming immigrants from former colonies (particularly North Africa) since the 1950s and has similar problems to the UK and other countries in terms of integration, and tolerance / intolerance.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité, are incorporated into both the 1946 and the 1958 French constitutions and are, to a large extent, still maintained to the present day.

France is a much more liberal country than the UK in many ways - it does, however, still have a tradition of "worker militancy" which has absolutely nothing to do with any of the views expressed in the two posts above this one.

Could it just be that there are people in many countries who refuse to accept that the world is changing in a way that they don't like, and that it has NOTHING to do with England, or France, or Scotland or Australia.
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Like Ive said a few times, A Thousand Million Flies can't be wrong, shite tastes great!!!.

But not to me.

Entrenched is not just us few, it's everyone with any view they hold firm. It's called values.

However...

Yep, We're (no, those you support) are thankfully evolving into gays to eventually reduce the population and their skin will get hairless, stretched and paltry white and transparent.

Their backbone is already soft and pliable from bending over backwards.

Why resist, its futile.

Some ex Google bloke already registered a new Religion of Artificial Intelligence with the intention to create a new God they can all bow down to alongside machines.

The rest of the populace will become Troglodytes and feast on your descendants.

So there is a Vision of a future.

All the best chaps, Im out of this one.

I'll rejoin on better topics.

.
 
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Jim.

I have lots of values, one of which is not to discriminate against those who are genetically programmed in a different way to me.

You have different values - fair enough - but they are not mine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
This refusal of people to accept that the world is changing in a way they don't like , its nothing more than a distortion David .
As a believer in certain values I refuse to accept those values being eroded and an Egalitarian Nothing taking their place ,
this laissez faire liberalism is destroying the human race in my opinion David .
 
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No - they did not ban the Burka.

As of 11 April 2011, it became illegal to wear a face-covering veil or other masks in public places such as the street, shops, museums, public transportation, and parks. Veils such as the chador, scarves and other headwear that do not cover the face, are not affected by this law and can be worn. The law applies to all citizens, including men and non-Muslims, who may not cover their face in public except where specifically provided by law (such as motor-bike riders and safety workers) and during established occasional events (such as some carnivals).

I would fully support such legislation in this country even if it were contrary to some more fundamental religious doctrine.
 
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So then they did ban the burka. In 2011 France became the first country in Western Europe to ban face-covering garments like the burqa or niqab in public. Last year some beach towns even banned the burkini, a full-body swimsuit worn by some Muslim women.
 
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This refusal of people to accept that the world is changing in a way they don't like , its nothing more than a distortion David .
As a believer in certain values I refuse to accept those values being eroded and an Egalitarian Nothing taking their place ,
this laissez faire liberalism is destroying the human race in my opinion David .
Of course you are fully entitled to the opinion that you believe that your "standards" are being eroded to the point where the human race is being destroyed. However, I don't quite understand you point about "a distortion". I accept that the world is changing, and some of what is changing is not what I would want in a perfect world. What is "distorted" about that, except that the changes I don't mind are the ones you find abhorrent and despicable ??

It is generally accepted that at least 3% of adults in countries where it is not punishable to give an honest answer would NOT class themselves as heterosexual. The figure may be higher, but is probably not lower.
In which case - please answer just "a" or "b" ...................

Is this a) a lifestyle choice, or b) the result of genetic factors determined at birth.

I acknowledge that there are arguments on both sides, but would be interested to know your views on that ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
When I say " distortion " David I mean that its little to do with a changing world in the sense that change is inevitable in all things ,
I see it more as an issue around changing the Pillars of Humanity rather than something you attempt to portray as almost Evolutionary .
As regards A or B I think both could be true
 
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So then they did ban the burka. In 2011 France became the first country in Western Europe to ban face-covering garments like the burqa or niqab in public. Last year some beach towns even banned the burkini, a full-body swimsuit worn by some Muslim women.
Zero123 - It's a very complicated argument which probably has no place here. The French constitution imposes Laïcité - a concept incomprehensible to many people outside France. Laïcité is a cornerstone of republican values. Derived from the Greek laos (the people, as distinct from the clergy), it is a specifically anti-clerical term.

It means, for example, that French schoolchildren must be "protected from all forms of religious proselytising" that would impede their free choice; teachers must not reveal their religious or political convictions when going about their work; teachers and pupils alike have a duty not simply to respect the ideal of secularism but to promote it actively.*
That applies to EVERY religion - not just Islam.

So - I accept that some of the rationale behind the "burka ban" in France might have come from anti-Islamic sentiment, but it goes much deeper than "just" that.
The burkhini ban was never French law - it was imposed by local authorities in (mainly) wealthy Riviera resorts who did not want their beaches to be in any way associated with religious fundamentalism, and therefore a possible terrorist target.

I don't support the wearing of the burka, and would legislate against it here in the UK. However, in France, kids can't go to school wearing a crucifix either !!
 
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When I say " distortion " David I mean that its little to do with a changing world in the sense that change is inevitable in all things ,
I see it more as an issue around changing the Pillars of Humanity rather than something you attempt to portray as almost Evolutionary .
As regards A or B I think both could be true
I don't say "evolutionary" any more than I say that giving votes to women or not butchering Catholics is "evolutionary". I prefer the words "progress towards a more tolerant society"
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I don't say "evolutionary" any more than I say that giving votes to women or not butchering Catholics is "evolutionary". I prefer the words "progress towards a more tolerant society"
But once again David its this " Tolerant Society " . Let me raise a slightly hypothetical situation with you .
I read recently that Muhammad is one of , if not the most popular name for a newly born boy .
Suppose in 50 years the Islamification of Britain is such , that there is a call to lower the age of Marriage
or even Legal Sexual Relationships to 14 years of age . Would you call that " progress to a more tolerant
society " or a bridge too far ?
 
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I would say that was "a bridge too far".

Obviously, only time will tell and I'll probably be long gone but .............. I just don't see the future that way. I think Islamic Fundamentalism will be marginalised in the same way as most other Religious Fundamentalism is now pretty much limited to small numbers of isolated "communities" like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, the Haredi Jews in Stamford Hill (London) where I once lived, and the Amish etc.

The majority of Moslems will probably have the same sort of religious "enthusiasm" ss the majority of Christians do - go to church twice a year at Christmas and Easter and take little notice of the Ten Commandments if they are a bit inconvenient when you fancy the neighbours wife / husband !!

You see - I don't see myself as a liberal leftie luvvie who believes in a totally laissez-faire society. I am politically to the right of centre, I believe that laws should be democratically made and properly enforced, and I believe that a "caring" society gives everyone equal opportunity, and looks after those who, through no fault of their own, require a bit of help and support from those who have prospered.

I also believe that nobody should be discriminated against simply because of a genetic ****tail - determined at conception - which has defined their skin colour, s e x uality, physical or mental condition.
 

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We don't always see eye to eye to things Red, but this..........

"What is clear is that this Tolerance is a dangerous thing and I think its largely responsible for the mess we are in Today."

This strikes a chord with me on so many levels and in almost every area of our lives today

Jim
 
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Yes - if I am honest, I don't much like "The Daily Mail" and I don't much like Peter Hitchens.

I agree that there is an over-reaction - on both sides - to this issue of gender identity. A few years ago, I briefly met through a mutual friend, a parent who was going through major issues with a teenage son who refused to accept his "physical gender" and wanted to be seen as, and regarded as, a female. Now - you can either condemn both child and parent for allowing this to happen, or you can accept that this family had very real issues to deal with, and that they deserved some help and support. I can assure you that the distress and helplessness felt by the parent was very real, and totally genuine.

I don't support extremism in any shape or form, and I agree that there are people who are pushing too hard to make some sort of political point. However, I would also point out that if you read the more "serious" newspapers, it is apparent that there is an ongoing issue between this teacher and the mother of the pupil involved and that this is not a "one off" incident.

I find the Hitchens sentence : In reality, a whole moral and social system is being destroyed, and traditional ideas of male and female are the next target, now that husbands and marriage have been done away with. : just a bit silly - frankly.
 
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