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Ingenium Timing chain issues.

44074 Views 126 Replies 24 Participants Last post by  joseperalg, 
RWD3M
Fraser said:
If the engine turns over, and everything looks perfectly OK apart from lack of compression, does the answer lie here? This is the description of the valve train- "fully variable". What if it a fault prevents the valves from being fully closed at compression stroke?

Most main agents of any make of car will never do any engine strips, they just do parts swaps these days - engine gone? new engine! Only independent 3rd party shops do engine strip-downs these days.

I found this on a Google search: -
and
I have to say I'm worried as I also have an XE, a May 2017 reg. 20D Portfolio.
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Fraser et al,

I took the liberty of contacting meristematic as mentioned in your post-Fraser and they couldn't have been more helpful. Below is an edited version of our communication

Hi Richard

Thank you for your email. The Ingenium 2.0 timing chain is a common failure, parts, and labor approx. £1398. it requires removing the gearbox and the back of the engine, we have done about 6 vehicles in the last 3 months with one in the workshop at the moment. If you send me the last 8 digits of your chassis number, I will make an inquiry to see if yours has been fitted with the newer timing chain.

Angela

Hi Angela,

The last 8 digits of my VIN are HCP09334.
I look forward to your reply.
Regards,

Richard.

Hi Richard

Thank you for your reply, I know the price seems high but there are approx. 11 hours of work involved and with all the parts and VAT it quickly mounts up, I have done some checks but can't really get a straight answer, your Vin brings up a 2016/17 vehicle, and the newer chains were not fitted until 25/11/2019 onwards so obviously to order these parts for your Vin number would then automatically supersede to the newer timing chains, we initially find the first symptoms are rattle from timing chain area, Cam sensor codes, exhaust vibration, not sure if this helps you but we would have to check. (I couldn't find the 'highlight' button!)

Angela

Hi Angela,

Thank you very much for your reply and the information you have provided.
My car isn't currently displaying any untoward symptoms (it has currently only covered around 40,000 miles) but clearly is in the range of vehicles that could be susceptible to this failure. I, therefore, need to consider whether it is a worthwhile precautionary measure to replace these parts.

Richard.

Hi Richard

I am happy your car isn't displaying any of the symptoms, it's not all the XE Ingenium engines that have been suffering from this. The one we have in the workshop at the moment has jumped 2 teeth, obviously, the chain has stretched giving the rattle from the engine.

Angela

What I take away from this is the need to be vigilant in the event of any untoward noises. Ensure that whenever the car is serviced the codes are downloaded and if the cam sensor pops up, have it checked out. I think that if a timing chain stretches enough for it to jump on a sprocket, there would be enough noise and/or fault codes to allow sufficient time to rectify ahead of a total failure.

I am toying with getting the newer parts and fitting them as a precaution but as I'm currently only doing a handful of miles I'll hold fire for the time being.

I hope everyone is keeping well.

Richard.
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MrKis
Interesting.
The couple of failures on the XE forum right now are slightly different symptoms than described by the helpful Mistermatic.
Rather than codes and noises, they seem to have gone straight to snapped. Obviously we don't know how attentive the owners were to any warnings. We don't even know if timing is the issue because none have checked.
Good work.
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Fraser
I get reassurance and no reassurance from this ! Reassuring that the timing chain problem can be fixed for not enormous amounts of money, and not reassuring because my car is a May 2017 !! I am now definitely going to extend my warranty !!
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Trooper
An XE owner had a fault code come up which was ( P25A9--00 Piston Oil Jet Cooling Solenoid ) and it took ages to find out what the problem was , and it turned out to be Stretched Timing Chain which has been replaced but he is still getting a warning light coming on.
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MrKis
I get reassurance and no reassurance from this ! Reassuring that the timing chain problem can be fixed for not enormous amounts of money, and not reassuring because my car is a May 2017 !! I am now definitely going to extend my warranty !!
Click to expand...
Most people with issues have had over 80k miles, if that helps.

An XE owner had a fault code come up which was ( P25A9--00 Piston Oil Jet Cooling Solenoid ) and it took ages to find out what the problem was , and it turned out to be Stretched Timing Chain which has been replaced but he is still getting a warning light coming on.
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Ok, so maybe the oil jet solenoid was the cause and then the timing chain stretch the symptom.
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payno
This is starting to look like the BMW N47 timing chain fault they never offered much help to there customers ether
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Trooper
MrKis said:
Most people with issues have had over 80k miles, if that helps.

Ok, so maybe the oil jet solenoid was the cause and then the timing chain stretch the symptom.
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It could be that it's like with the X Type that when a Gearbox Fault appeared most often it was nothing to do with a Gearbox Fault.
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X
The engine is just not good enough to survive after 80,000. As you know mine was one of the total failures, but not one warning, aside from an EGR fault the day before it died. No abnormal noises, no loss of power until it died. Whilst searching for someone to repair the engine I had discussions with an ex-Jaguar employee who said that the engine is not designed to do over 100K, whether this was sour grapes, or the fact that the engines are that bad I do not know. But Fraser, yes I would extend your warranty, though I am not sure if it would cover the extensive costs if/when the failure does occur. I think there are going to be a number of XE's clogging up driveways and scrap yards in the years to come unless Jag pull their finger out and start providing all the parts required to complete an engine rebuild/repair at sensible costs.
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MrKis
Just thought I'd post this info in case it helps shed some light on things.
It appears there have been 3 revisions to the Diesel lower primary timing chain (1) and probably other parts too.
All Timing chain parts supersede to the latest part number.
Here are the VIN ranges, not sure why the latest revisions don't match on VIN
Of course the main culprit might not be the chain itself, the stretch could be caused by something else.

1 - Primary lower timing chain.
TO VIN 938426 = JDE36923
FROM VIN 938427 - TO VIN HA999999 = JDE39110
FROM VIN HCP00001 - TO VIN KCP55485 = JDE39110
FROM VIN LCP55486 = JDE40593
2 - Secondary upper timing chain
TO VIN HA999999 - AJ813317
FROM VIN HCP00001 - TO VIN KCP55485 - AJ813317
FROM VIN LCP55486 - TO VIN LCP62929 - JDE40592
FROM VIN LCP62930 - JDE40737

Font Slope Auto part Drawing Art
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P
MrKis, have there been similar revisions for the petrol engines, are the layouts and issues not similar?
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Ian D
PScott543 said:
MrKis, have there been similar revisions for the petrol engines, are the layouts and issues not similar?
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I haven't heard of a petrol ingenium engine failing with its timing chain.
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P
Thanks Ian, I understood they used common components in both types of engine.
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Trooper
Would the petrol engine not have had the upgraded timing chain fitted when the petrol XE 's came into production because they were quite a bit later arriving in the showrooms than the Diesel engine.
And Mistermatic says that the upgraded chain kit didn't appear till late November 2019 and certainly the petrol engine was in production before that.

Personally i like the Engine and if I have any problems I hope that I could stop the Engine before any serious damage would be done, i've still got a warranty till September and have a treasure chest set aside incase i might need it . Lol

How many engine's have been sold and how many have had this problem, I think Jaguar have certainly let their customer's down and i think it's a sign off the times that we live in.
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T
I've done a lot of readings and research the last few weeks.

I think somewhere around 20% of the ingenium engines will definitely have chain issues.
But why?

I think (this is my personal opinion) the answer can be found in oil quality, short distances and driving the engine carefully when cold and the start stop system.

Many short distances means incomplete dpf regenerations. Sow extra fuel is injected with fuel dilution as a consequence.
This means less lubrication which is bad for chain and camshaft.
Then there is the start stop system. Every time the engine turns, it wil slap (can't find the English word) the chain.

Sow if my advice would be
  • Change the oil every 16 or 17k miles
  • Disable your start stop system(you tube)
  • Don't use this engine for short distances. At least 30+ minutes each travel with higher speeds
  • Drive carefully when cold

What do you guys think ?
Do you think I'm right and the precautions can prevent us from having trouble?
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T
Hope I’m right. Becouse that will mean I can keep the car otherwise it’s going to be replaced soon after ending warranty.
on the other hand when I bought the car the dealer told me chain issues were rare and If so, most certainly they would fix it under coulance.
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Fraser
So extra fuel is injected with fuel dilution as a consequence.
This means less lubrication which is bad for chain and camshaft.
Click to expand...
I think you mean oil dilution.
I would agree with early oil changes, 10k miles for me. The last time Jaguar had trouble with valve gear was the V8 engine that had plastic (!!) upper timing chains tensioners. These failed, the engine made a rattling noise, and then minutes later the chain jumped the sprockets and.....end of engine ! It was finally sorted out by about 2004, and anybody who buys a prer-2004 V8 is always recommended to get the upper tensioners checked to make sure they are the aluminium-bodied ones, unless they have an invoice in front of them that says the later ones have been put in.
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T
You are correct Fraser.
I know the Xe normally does NOT suffer from oil dilution where landrover DO due to other construction. But I’m wondering what the correlation between oil quality and chain is.
With oil quality I mean the overall quality. So that means everything included (fuel, age, degradation etc.)

I think when they constructed the engine the engineers thought about the chain. They can’t be that dumb.
So there must be a underlaying reason
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MrKis
Sow if my advice would be
  • Change the oil every 16 or 17k miles
Click to expand...
This is always good advice, applicable to any engine. I think I would go 10k max and do it myself (easy, all top side)

  • Disable your start stop system(you tube)
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Not sure on the effect it has.

  • Don't use this engine for short distances. At least 30+ minutes each travel with higher speeds
Click to expand...
I think this mainly applies to vehicles that are not close coupled, like the euro 6 XJ. The XE and XF will cope much better in this regard.

  • Drive carefully when cold
Click to expand...
Always true of any car.
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MrKis
If the ingenium diesel issue turns out to be just a timing one, then it is something we have seen many times on many brands.
It isn't good for Jaguar but it isn't something we don't see on a great many new engines.
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T
It is certainly not the first brand with chain problems but what amazes me is that 2 large companies have already preceded them from which they could learn from.

How do they do the testing before they bring them on the market?
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